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Sat May 26 00:13:29 SAST 2012

SA govt says Libya future must include Gaddafi regime

Sapa | 25 August, 2011 12:2574 Comments
Protesters carrying a Kingdom of Libya flag attend a rally against Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi in Misrata. File photo.
Protesters carrying a Kingdom of Libya flag attend a rally against Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi in Misrata. File photo.
Image by: THAIER AL-SUDANI / REUTERS

The South African government believes the way forward in the reconstruction of Libya must be an "all-inclusive process".

This should incorporate elements of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's regime, said international relations and co-operation deputy director-general Clayson Monyela.

Responding to questions at a media briefing in Pretoria after the cabinet's fortnightly meeting on Wednesday, he told journalists this view was consistent with the AU so-called road map for peace in Libya.

"Our expectation would be that with the imminent fall of the government of Colonel Gaddafi, you would then have an interim government or authority which would come into place.

"That authority would then begin... the process of the drafting of an interim constitution, leading to a referendum, leading to a free and fair democratic election.

"Then you start the process of stabilising the country, building the nation, reconciliation, unity, reconstructing the infrastructure, reviving economy.

"Our expectation as the South African government, consistent with the AU, is that this will be an all-inclusive process. So you will have elements of the NTC [National Transitional Council] as well as elements of the regime or government of Colonel Gaddafi."

Monyela also restated the government's position on its objection at the UN to the "unfreezing" of Libyan assets.

While South Africa was not opposed to releasing funds for humanitarian purposes, "what we have raised caution on is the releasing or unfreezing of assets to the rebels, or the NTC".

The UN had not recognised the NTC as the new government in Libya.

"You can't then ask a UN committee to release funds to a structure that is not recognised by the UN," Monyela said.

Further, the AU had not yet pronounced on the matter, but would do so on Friday following a meeting of its peace and security council in the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa.

Only after this pronouncement "can we talk about this unfreezing of assets", he said, adding that South Africa would "take our cue" from the AU.

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SA govt says Libya future must include Gaddafi regime

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COMMENTS [74]

bonearch

Posted 274 days ago
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Aaaah lol - so this is what all the mudslinging against the EU is about. The oh so transparent hypocrites! Showahed desperate to keep his buddy in the pound seats....
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ChickenRunner

Posted 274 days ago
Gaddafi spotted in Despots Ave, Sandton....

Scribbles

Posted 274 days ago
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I'm not sure if I agree or disagree but I would like to see how it might play out. If they do manage to coexist in a democratic society then I doubt any party related to Gadaffi will last long. He didn't exactly enjoy that much support from the people of Libya as it is.

Revolutionalised-Biko

Posted 274 days ago
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This is a type of response you will get from those who spent too much time drinking tea with the Queen when they were exile in Enland whilst our country was burning! You cannot have a one-size fits all policy benchmarked on our failed democracy!! Having an all inclusive government involving those from an oppressive regime has resulted in a mess South Africa finds itself in today! The rebels are right for going it alone without their former oppressors! That is what this country needed then and it is what it needs now moving forward!!
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Baas_Frik

Posted 274 days ago
So Biko tell me why do your beloved ANCYL beg for mercy from the ANC.
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Baas_Frik

Posted 274 days ago
Oh and how were you revolutionised and by whom. Or maybe you got the words confused and you actually mean sodomised.
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fuzzypip

Posted 274 days ago
Now Now Baas Frik be nice to Biko!

Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
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Our government is talking from experience and it knows that this inclusion will bring positive results. The National Party that oppressed blacks for more than four decades during its evil apartheid regime was allowed to participate in our first Government of National Unity. Its president was made a deputy president of the first democratically government. By this a smooth transition of power was possible and the civil war was avoided. So I advise the Libyans to take heed of this important advise from our government if they want to rebuild their country.
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ChickenRunner

Posted 274 days ago
Ja! en kyk hoe lyk ons nou...
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
ChickenRunner
Sorry I did not get you. Can you explain yourself a bit more?
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AWA

Posted 274 days ago
Maxi, maybe you should watch the news.
Not the same situation.

The civil war has been going on in Libya for months now.
Gaddafi wanted and still wants to kill them all.

At least read a nespaper or the news here once in a while.
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Mbakh

Posted 274 days ago
The way Zuma is running your country, you shall probably end up as another basket case African country. I long for the days when South Africa was a leader that set example for the rest of us.
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
AWA
I am aware my friend and for your info, I am watching CNN and Aljazeera at least 4 hours a day. We had the similar situation in South Africa before our first democratic elections. The right-wingers were fighting against the then changes. There was a third force causing fighting’s between Inkata and ANC supporters. Many died then, but we managed to get over that by reconciling. We included everyone in our first democratic government. NP was represented by De Klerk in a form deputy president, and Inkata was represented by Buthelezi in the form of a minister.
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buddi

Posted 274 days ago
You must remember that this was made possible with the help of the white government. I don't Ghaddafi has any intention of co-operating.
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
Mbakh
Don't tell me about Zuma. Zuma will be history soon. I am giving credit to those who made the transition period to be more fruitful.
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EXITOS

Posted 274 days ago
is it not a bit too late to try an avoid a civil war ?
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
EXITOS
Like I said in my previous comments that things could have been worse than the post election violent if we sidelined other involved groups. I know there is already a civil war in Libya, but the situation can be worse if other groups are excluded from the transition government. Don't forget the transition government in Libya will not be the democratically elected one. So things can become ugly if other people are not represented.

ChickenRunner

Posted 274 days ago
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SA government giving more money away again - sh!t Libya has tons of cash - what's up with this BS

Mercenary

Posted 274 days ago
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Libya's rebels have been guided by western policy hence their "we aint selling no oil to non NATO peeps", are they even organised, what do we know about their leaders about their backrounds...if no GNU we will have another Afghansitan and Iraq, GNU needed to reconcile.
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AWA

Posted 274 days ago
Well the rebels will not sell their oil to South Africa if we hold back their funding and keep playing the Gaddafi card.

You only have to watch the news to see how angry and frustrated they are at South Africa for this crazy stance. Do the ANC think Gaddafi is ever going to be in power again?

Sure they want to protect their friend. but at least protect your own people first.

Follow the AU? The AU is a failed organization that achieved zero in Libya. Who the hell is going to listen to them. And how many months are they going to deliberate before they accept reality. The new government will teach the AU a lesson by not selling oil to them.
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
@AWA

We do not buy Libyan oil


Spitfire

Posted 274 days ago
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Only reason the crooked ANC want Gadaffi's old team in there is to try and cover up the inevitable expose of how the ANC worked in cahoots with that criminal, murderer, Gadaffi in corrupt arms deals and corrupt back-handers. The level of ANC squealing is directly related to the amounts and the number of Zuma's cronies about to be exposed.
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
Don't forget that Gadafi and his party are still enjoying good support from other Libyans. So for Libya to reconcile, these group of supporters must be represented in the new government. To sideline them is to invite instability or civil war.

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 274 days ago
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Zuma's expenditure going in and out of Libya to strategise and prop up Gaddafi's regime must be calculated, and he must pay it back. It is now clear why his proposal was rejected with contempt. You cannot eat your cake and have it.

Unlike all other animal species, human beings live either by dominating others or are dominated by the others. The nation states are managed in the same fashion. We even came up with terms like democracy to camouflage our barbaric quest for domination. In the real world, you either side with the conqueror or you are doomed. The West cannot be used only to mop-up the disasters created by dictatorship only. They must intervene when these disasters are being created, and nip this African poverty-creation in the bud, before it is too late.

If the ruling party elite want Libyan oil to feed their already bulging tummies they must leave us out of it. We are sinking in poverty as it were.

Mbakh

Posted 274 days ago
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Zuma has no shame. Gaddafi today is shelling Tripoli from its outskirts killing innocent civilians and they want us to include him and his clan in any future settlement after all the sacrifices that Libyans have paid. This criminal shall only be considered for a fair trial . To all Africans in general and especially South Africans, its about time you also considered ridding yourselves of your embarrassingly corrupt leaders, maybe then Africa will catch up with the rest of the world.

POST94

Posted 274 days ago
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This so called all-inclusive government is a failing South African myth . It is unnecessary in Libya because they are birds of the feather. No racism there, just issues of dictatorship. In RSA, racism is entrenched in the hearts of our former oppressors and hence the need for a protective inclusive government.
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previouslycrackerr

Posted 274 days ago
No. Racism in the current South Africa is the product of propaganda by vengeful opportunists and failures. What we do find encouraging is that the propaganda and lies are losing their impact. You can't forever mislead everybody.
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Mbakh

Posted 274 days ago
Very smart assessment.
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago

@Post reality

As a sub-Saharan, you clearly do not understand N-African politics. Better keep quiet. Yo are more relevant that way.



previouslycrackerr

Posted 274 days ago
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Gaddafi and his regime is finished. If they show their faces they will be killed or sent to the Hague for trial.

Can't understand South Africa's position.

For the attention Maxi and Biko. Here we had elections first and only afterwards was a so-called government of national unity formed.

You two never fail to exhibit your ignorance.
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MisterWendal

Posted 274 days ago
Truedat, previouslycrackerr.
The fact they want to do the thing arsewise makes one suspect that there is another financial scandal waiting to be unearthed involving Brother Leader and the ANC's cadre deployees!
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Maxi

Posted 274 days ago
Whether there is election before or after, all parties must be represented in an interim government. Note that since it will not be democratically elected, every Libyan should be represented so that fair elections could be held. There is no ignorance here unless you are the type of person who does not accommodate other people’s opinion.
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
@Maxi

Gadaffi left overs does not represent a party. There was not a party under his regime.

However, they have to be included to ensure continuing governement.

But, like any revolutionary affair, that will not happen, hence the history of Africa.

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 274 days ago
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Zuma risks bombardment if he is harbouring his fellow criminal here. If 783 criminal charges brought him power, it does not mean that this international criminal will also benefit from crime. We must arrest him and put him in Zimbabwe, if our lives are at risk. At least he can practise his 'African solution' freely there without using our taxes.

The same goes with all the criminals he uses to siphon state funds.

diplobrat

Posted 274 days ago
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The distinction needs to be made between Gaddafi himself and the Gaddafi regime - the AU Roadmap does not include Gaddafi as part of the negotiations. Anyways the whole of the TNC used to be the Gaddafi regime!!!

Shongweni

Posted 274 days ago
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The only meaningful contribution the SA govt and AU can make to the situation in Libya at this stage is to cajole, pressure and coax Gaddafi to either go into exile or to cease fire. His continuing fighting is just as fruitless and meaningless as Adolf Hitler fighting to the death in the flames of a destroyed Berlin in WW2. Every day a lot of Libyan civilians are dying because of this old man's stubborn, selfish desire to "go down fighting to the death" and by condoning this policy through their inaction the AU are contributing to what has become the meaningless loss of innocent lives.
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bonearch

Posted 274 days ago
Mmmm by coax you mean coerce? They could plug a bit of coax up his butt and connect it to a few thousand volts - that would get him to cooperate for sure!

Vikingblood

Posted 274 days ago
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RSA has a funny way of expressing their democracy. How can a ''democratic'' government defend a dictator's bloody regime? The answer must be the Republic of South Africa and only their rulers. LOL

Baas_Frik

Posted 274 days ago
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The South African government has no right to interfere in any other countries affairs. It should first get its own house in order. The image the world have of them is that they protect criminals. For them to be taken seriously they will have to show they deserve it. Their friendship with criminals and murderers like Mugabe and Gadaffi to name but a few show their real colours.
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Feelgood

Posted 274 days ago
Why is the government of SA that called themselves a democracy has embraced a man that has ruled Libya for forty two years by force? Gaddafi is guilty of killing off all of his opposition and had everyone watching each other. Under Gaddafi rule in Libya, there was no civil services systems, legal system and the military was a family affair. Gaddafi had all of his sons appointed to the top position in the military and in the government. This man ruled Libya by having all of the citizens watching each other and many people were put to death on rumors. Gaddafi just like Mugabe didn't stay in power by being a saints, these two guys killed off anybody that they viewed as a threat to them. Check out the fire last week in Zim. when the retired officer in the military died in a fire.

zwelinapster

Posted 274 days ago
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What's the point of finally kicking out a dictator and then including his henchmen in the structures of a new fledgling democracy?

It would be like injecting active cancerous cells back into the body of a cANCer survivor.......

Beelzebub

Posted 274 days ago
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Fortunately the people of Libya and NATO are having their way. If it had been the AU's way, the future of Libya would have remained solely in the hands of the Gaddafi regime.

BobbyBob

Posted 274 days ago
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Now we are telling the Lybians what they must do? If I were part of a democratically elected Lybian government, I would
1 Tell the SA government to mind its own business
2 Ask the SA government why they supported Gadafi instead of the liberation struggle
3 Get rid of / jail all known Gadafi government sympathisers

Phaedioux

Posted 274 days ago
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It seems that the AU is merely an African Club whose members are despotic leaders and its sole function is to protect each other.

To think that Gaddafi was pushing to become the 'King of Africa'!

The mind boggles.

The UN, EU and USA are quite right in ignoring the AU and SA.
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zwelinapster

Posted 274 days ago
"To think that Gaddafi was pushing to become the 'King of Africa'! "

Well it is never too late - now that he is free of his duties and available he might just consider taking up the position if the offer is still valid?!
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Phaedioux

Posted 274 days ago
@1984 - do you think he will be allowed to operate and function from his ICC cell?
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zwelinapster

Posted 274 days ago
@ Phaedioux

Probably yes - if the cell's key is in the hands of AU? ;-)
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Phaedioux

Posted 274 days ago
@1984 - LOL!!!

Not as unlikely as some people think.

The club members of the AU would dearly love for Gaddafi to serve his time in an African jail.

They would probably build it right next to a bank with an ATM?
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Stompie_se_Paai

Posted 274 days ago
Nothing I ever write appears here. Am I banned, if yes, why?

EXITOS

Posted 274 days ago
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This is sad.
The one man who was warning us of the re-colonisation of Africa sees his country being colonised. What is worse is that no one has the gut to call the west to order. since when does the UN recognise rebels and military take overs? Then they are surprised when ppl from the middle east have a score to settle.

Phaedioux for you information, Gaddafi tried too hard to serve his nation.
Now all these greedy M***** F**k**s try to steel what rightfully belongs to the peple of Lybia.
NXA SIS
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Phaedioux

Posted 274 days ago
How can 'they' be stealing from the peoples of Libya if the UN is attempting to repatriate the frozen funds for the upliftment of the Libyan people?

Were the ANC at one time not considered to be rebels/terrorists? - they too were assisted by the West and the UN?

Are you also allowed to use double standards?
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BobbyBob

Posted 274 days ago
I suspect you're also an apartheid apologist. Sorry to have seen that undemocratic system come to an end?
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Phaedioux

Posted 274 days ago
@BobbyBob - am confused as to who you are responding to?

I personally don't give a hoot about what happened during apartheid anymore (those nasty people are long gone and are probably living peacefully in Europe or Australia) - I've put that behind me, but I sure as Hades care a lot about what is happening now!

You?

koolkoosta

Posted 274 days ago
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The so called rebels in libya that say the will never sell their oil to a non NATO member will be the west biggest enemies in 10years or 20years time watch this space, because the west throgh its greed cant help but to meddle and try to influence politics in the countries they have conqured and thus end up being enemies of the smae people they helped a decade ealier.
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BobbyBob

Posted 274 days ago
Whatever you're smoking, stop it! It's no good for you.

Francis

Posted 274 days ago
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SA govt says Libya future must include Gaddafi regime.
Yes of course this must be included and in such a way that all corrupt despots and unworthy governments, African and other, get a needed lessen how the democratic world deals with criminals. Each and every theft must be criminalized, prosecuted and penalized.
In South Africa we can start from the president (country @ sayl) down via the ministers, public servant and no escape allowed from thieving tenderpreneurs.

molancheche

Posted 274 days ago
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it's obvoius the ANC and it's government owe Gaddafi a favour, i mean all that money should now be repaid by having him be given an opportunity to kill more Libyans! sies! to hell with Gaddafi, I hope they kill him sooner and only the ANC will mourn him. more inclusive, it's working so well in SA now hey, that's why some people still own the economy!?

YellowPeril

Posted 274 days ago
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The relationship between the Zuma/ANC and Gaddafi is very murky at best. We still never got clarity as to whether Gaddafi bankrolled Zuma's Rape trial..... Didn't he go cap in hand to Libya? It's rubbish wanting the Evil Colonel to participate in the new govt. He must give back the $250 billion of oil money he stole from the Libyan coffers. Trust our Corrupt ruling party to still want him around. I wonder why?

kadotch2000

Posted 274 days ago
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MZANSI, please stay out of this!!!

Beelzebub

Posted 274 days ago
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This question needs to be asked. How is the Gaddafi regime to be included, seen as they will either be dead or warming jail cells at the Hague.

brencis

Posted 274 days ago
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We always back the despots - this should be no surprise. The problem of course is how much backing The Inkwenkwe, South Africa's first despot is getting. He is having a tough time of it - Gaddafi gone, Chavez so ill, the YL in trouble with the big boys - eish it's tough trying to be a despot.

previouslycrackerr

Posted 274 days ago
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Nobody doubts that the democratic process adopted will allow every citizen an equal say in the election of leaders.
“Gaddafi elements” do not represent the average citizen/fighter who fought for and on the Gaddafi side. It is a term coined to allow core Gaddafi-ists to re-enter the political and military landscape through the backdoor.
Those who allege that the situation in Libya corresponds to the pre-94 situation in South Africa must really think readers of these pages are the stupid.

The Gaddafi-ists are seeing their backsides in the war. They refused to relinquish their dictatorship and instead opted for a power struggle by waging a WAR with tanks and air force planes against co-Libyans with terrible threats made in public against the people. Thanks to their actions they caused the killing and maiming of many. Even at this stage, with defeat and no gain facing them, they continue to fuel the continuance of hostilities. Gaddafi could have left, with his whole family and pals, if he wanted to. No, let’s go on and kill and maim. Let others make sacrifices so the dictator and Gaddafi-ists can have another few days of breathing handed to them with the blood and gore and burn wounds of the plebs.
And they must be accommodated at the communal decision table afterwards when they have finally been defeated with the blood and sacrifices of the ordinary Libyan? What nonsense! They can participate as ordinary Libyans in the elections to come - if they are not in the Hague in some prison cell or even in Tripoli in some prison cell.


v_3

Posted 274 days ago
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Payback time for the million Gaddafi gave to the ANC.

It's not for the ANC to decide but for the Libyans, in free and fair elections.
Gaddafi himself has an appointment in court for human rights crimes.

JohnnyEnglish

Posted 274 days ago
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Jacob Zuma and ANC. You are a disgrace ! You have obviously forgotten your past. You have become the whores of a dictator. Disgusting. The world has seen you for what you really are.

donorfatigued

Posted 274 days ago
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Pretty much as if the Allies had insisted on leaders from Hitler's regime being involved in the reconstruction of Germany!

No they did not do that - they simply locked them up or executed them - finish and klaar.

But this is what happens when a bunch like the Zumanoids are in power - criminals on the one hand and advocates of ludicrous human rights for criminals, such as those from Gadaffi's regime on the other!

BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
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The SA Gov statement is not stupid. The Times reporting the headline is as usual trying to be controversial/.


If you are aware of the facts then the rebels are not victorious by brute force but by the moral capitulation of the current regime employees. I.e. the military abandoning their posts amongst others, foreign ambassadors embracing the old flag etc.

To include perceived enemies is only logical.

The modern day revolution is not accompanied by rape and pillaging like it used to be 600 years ago, or in current .... Credit has to be given, apriori, to the original ANC government for that.

The current paradigm shift under the YL is of course proving quite the opposite of sense.

As is currently reported, some sensible ANC members are trying to support sense.








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previouslycrackerr

Posted 274 days ago
@ BraRed

The rebels are of course victorious by brute force. Shooting, bombing and burning each other is brute force.

That many surrender or flee does not change the essential nature of what is taking place. They may surrender or leave their posts out of fear for example, or a realization of how senseless resistance may be.

Thank the ANC for what?

We are hearing semantics or word play from the ANC. It arouses suspicion. No senior Gaddafi-ist or any other person that does not publicly denounce his/her connection with the Gaddafi-ists or their party must be allowed in the post-civil war negotiations. The same must apply to the candidates for political office. The rest (all Gaddafi-ists) can participate in the voting process at the ballot box as ORDINARY voters.
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
@previouslycrackerr

Credit given to the ANC for the simple reason, that post revolution, retribution is a disaster.

It's clear that the rebels have won - for now.

After that (post revolution) is the challenge to keep civil society functioning, and history has taught us that.

The ANC has set the precedent. (or more relevenat post 94 society). ANC has the claim to this though.



correspondent

Posted 274 days ago
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Sheryl Cwele is a rat..she must go, the drug dealer,, I can't believe that her husband knew nothing about what is going on.. Bob Mugabe is next on the list of despots to go.. Zuma must be cringing at the thought.. and then his randy pal king in Swaziland.. mmm getting close Jacob
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
All modern/current day BEE beneficiaries are.

Political influence to get the deal etc etc bla bla

BEE has not done anything but create corruption.

The immediate post 94 beneficiaries got away with it - clean.

But looking at the even the YL and its cronies in Limpopo is too much to bear.

Sheryl Cwele is a rat, at least she had the creativity to go it alone, ie without the BEE ticket.




Having said all that...... it's still a very sad state of affairs.

Baas_Frik

Posted 274 days ago
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Nobody gives a sh!t what South Africa says. They are just another dysfunctional regime.
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BraRed

Posted 274 days ago
Insofar as N-Africa is concerned yes.

Sub-Saharan Africa does not exist. N-Africa does not want to be associated,

Gadaafi himself said that n and S Nigeria should split.


Sudan split.


North Africa is happy. At no point do they support or associate with SSA.

RSA is irrelevant. They do not care.

Interrestelingly is that Libya has no debt, Gaddafi is no typical despot. OPff shore accounts are all related to Soverign wealth funds.



1st step from the EU. We will offer you a bridging loan, against your frozen assests.


Consider the fact that Gadaffi wanted oil to be traded - not in $'s but in golden Dinars.


Lot's to be said for that !


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samsam

Posted 273 days ago
so why are they crowling for SA for release of frozen funds, ehehehehehehe this ANC if you dont know.

let me remind you the very same Madam Zille of yours went to IMF in order to deny Eskom loan what happened hehehehehehehe is anc still not recognised kwakwakwakwa

Again, the release of Shrien did you listen to the judgment go back and google it, it says " he believe SAfrican justice system is a transparent and the best in the world" kikikiki compared to the very same of yours designed by Pik Botha, Vorsters etc

henrypage

Posted 274 days ago
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The SA government advising the Libyans about what they should do? That's rich coming from those who have not lifted a finger for the Libyan people! The Libyans deserve to forge their own future and I hope Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the chairman of the Libyan National Transitional Council, tells SA and the AU to get their own houses in order before telling others how to do it.