Tutu tells ANC government it's a disgrace
Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu has launched a blistering attack on President Jacob Zuma's government, saying he would go as far as praying for the ANC's demise.
"We will pray as we prayed for the downfall of the apartheid government, we will pray for the downfall of the government that misrepresents us," a furious Tutu said at a news conference on South Africa's failure to grant a visa to Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama.
''Our government is worse than the apartheid government, because at least you were expecting it from the apartheid government ." said Tutu.
Yesterday, two days before Tutu's 80th birthday, the Dalai Lama - who first applied in June for a visa to visit South Africa - withdrew his application because he did "not want to create any inconvenience to anyone, individuals or governments," his office said.
Included in the Tibetan leader's South African itinerary was delivering the inaugural Desmond Tutu International Peace Lecture at the University of the Western Cape.
The Times has learnt reliably that the government was to inform him yesterday that his application had been denied.
This is the second time in two years that the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, has been refused entry into the country.
The Times understands that the Department of Home Affairs tried to advise the Department of International Relations and Co-operation on how to deal with the Buddhist leader's visa application, as Home Affairs Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma is a former minister of foreign affairs and presided over the refusal of his visa in 2009.
Home Affairs sought a meeting with the Presidency and the International Relations and Co-operation Department on the matter but the meeting never took place.
At a press conference called by the Desmond Tutu Peace Centre late yesterday afternoon, Tutu sent shivers through the audience.
"The trouble I think is that the ANC reckons that the freedom that we enjoy is due to them. They reckon everyone else is just a sideline," he said.
Tutu, who shouted and wagged a finger as he spoke, said Zuma did not represent him.
"Hey Mr Zuma, you and your government don't represent me. You represent your own interests."
The retired archbishop spoke of how disgusted he had been when he had sat in parliament during Zuma's state of the nation address, listening to "this president of ours" failing to pay tribute to the religious leaders who helped in the fight against apartheid.
He reminded the gathering that it was religious leaders who in 1989 organised 30000 people to march against oppression.
"Let the ANC know that they cannot airbrush us out," he said.
Government spokesman Jimmy Manyi responded later: "The Arch seemed very angry. He is very angry. We note that the Arch is very angry and we will respond in due course."
ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu said last night: "We are appealing to the archbishop to calm down and work together with the ANC and its government, first, on the Dalai Lama issue and, second, we appeal to the archbishop not to pray for the demise of the ANC-led government, but instead to work together with the ANC and pray for the ANC-led government to deliver a better life for all the people of South Africa.''
Earlier yesterday, International Relations spokesman Clayson Monyela said the authorities had been processing the Dalai Lama's visa application when the South African High Commissioner's office in New Delhi received a statement from the Tibetan spiritual leader saying he was cancelling his trip.
"We have not denied him a visa. There was no refusal by the South African government to grant him a visa. He has, for the reasons he has expressed in the statement, decided to cancel the trip when the process was still under way," said Monyela.
It was unfair for the Dalai Lama's office to have expected a visa to be issued in such a short time. Monyela said the Dalai Lama's original passport was submitted only on September 20. Previously, a photocopy of the passport had been submitted as the Dalai Lama had been travelling.
"There is no country in the world that can process a visa without the original passport," he said.
But at the press conference yesterday advocate Dumisa Ntsebeza, chairman of the Desmond Tutu Peace Centre, said he was "saddened" by Monyela's attitude. Monyela's implication that the Dalai Lama did not know how to apply for a visa was insulting to the leader, his office and the Desmond Tutu Peace Centre.
Ntsebeza said he had written to the Deputy Minister of International Relations, Ebrahim Ebrahim, and contacted the director-general of the Department of Home Affairs, Mkhuseli Apleni, and even Dlamini-Zuma.
Wits University has organised a march of protest at the government's "silencing [of] the voice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama".
Vice-Chancellor Loyiso Nongxa said: "The university condemns the state for once again not granting a visa for this stalwart of peace to enter our country."
Matthew McDonald, a research analyst for the Centre for Chinese Studies at the University of Stellenbosch, said the issue had escalated "beyond proportion".
"There is now suspicion about Chinese pressure, even if we don't know if there was any in this case. There are questions around the declared value basis of South Africa's foreign policy - and a question about how sovereign South Africa is in its decisions. There is an unhappy civil society ." he said.
Paul Graham, executive director of Idasa, said it was difficult to understand why the government had not granted a "tourist visa".
"Of course visas are always at the discretion of the state to whom an application is made, but on the assumption that a correct and timely application was made, a refusal must inevitably raise questions about whether the decision was influenced by a wish not to offend a critical trading partner," he said.
- Additional reporting by Sipho Masondo, Philani Nombembe and Sapa



SHARE YOUR OPINION
If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.SuiGeneris
Posted 234 days ago+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey Mr Zuma.......Did you hear that ?
Did you listen very carefully ?
cANCerSurvivor
In my eyes, this government has gone from being a disappointment to a disgrace.
Bokoloshe
BAMBINA
You and your government only represent what can go into your bank, if there is no financial gain then there is no support from you or your corrupt government, it is frightening reading on a daily basis how every department in the government is guilty of maladministration, imagine how rich SA would be and how it would have schools, hospitals etc that actually work if your employee's did not steal us blind.
BarryPotgieter
The Ancestors of the poor of the poor will come back to PUNISH the GREEDY "COMRADES".The are not sleeping but waiting for the correct moment.
Gaara
Posted 234 days agoUndress
Bokoloshe
AnotherTaxPayer
Is there another special tax that I'm not aware of?
That's if you can get people to pay tax in the first place. no money, no service = no service, no money
pik_it_up
Posted 234 days agoMahlek'ehlathini
Mahlek'ehlathini
Bokoloshe
ArseneLupin
Posted 234 days agoMahlek'ehlathini
SuiGeneris
''''''"African Style" as opposed to what?''''''''
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Opposed to true democracy - not a bunch of communists who operate under a veil of democracy !
Mahlek'ehlathini
SuiGeneris
1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Finland
4 Switzerland
5 Denmark
6 New Zealand
7 Netherlands
8 Ireland
9 Germany
10 United Kingdom
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Need some more spoon feeding ?
Mahlek'ehlathini
by the way, does it not seem odd to you that there is no developing country in your list? and don't you then see nothing weird about comparing the "economic choices" of a developing country to those of developed countries?
By the way, are communism and democracy mutually exclusive?
SuiGeneris
=====================================
Acknowledged all over the world, but you, MR SOD, will question it !!!!!!!!!!!!
proudySA
LilfordLesabe
or we align our self with the next power block. questionable responsible to the strengthening of our 4-5% primary produce sector. i.e. mining
i say let the Bishop rant, its not the first time he makes a noise over issues he is not sound about. in the words of Gen. Bheki Cele he must "shut-up" and concentrate on.... (something about him not being a deputy.. ) #justsaying
Taboy
I wonder where RSA would lie on this list...?
Almostover
Posted 234 days agoGaara
Undress
I think there are people who are desperate for the demise of the ANC. Troubled as it is, I do not see the party dying anytime soon if ever. Instead it will renew and reconsitute itself and still be at the helm of south african politics.
Taboy
Undress
Posted 234 days agoThe government fumbled on the di lama visa issue, but for tutu to then become melodramatic and compares thsi government to the apartheid regime is unwarranted.
The last time I checked he was retired from political commentary.
Gaara
Undress
Joe-Higgins
Posted 234 days agoMahlek'ehlathini
Posted 234 days agoWhile I hold no brief for the ANC as a party,one can not overlook the Need (of any developing country) to always "remember what side their bread is buttered on"
And The "Whites' moral somersault " is amusing to say the least, hehehehe...when Tutu calls for a "white tax" - He is a senile old racist......but when he throws his toys in air over the Dalai Lama - He is a "voice of reason" ....Gotta Love this here country :-)
Highway
cANCerSurvivor
LMAO ... white tax! LOL!!
SuiGeneris
Very good point !
Mahlek'ehlathini
Undress
However, coming to think of it, I do not think it is as difficult as projected to pin down white people and determine who should pay such a tax. There are whole lot of mecahisms that can be used to ensure that those who benefitted from apartheid and their descendants are charged an extra tax.
Bokoloshe
MisterWendal
Posted 234 days agoStill an icon in the fight against injustices internationally.
What a man - a fully paid-up human being!
Undress
MisterWendal
He supported the Palestinian cause only after conducting many personal visits to Israel and Palestine. He proposed the tax only after having had personal information released during his years as chairman of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. His current reaction is due to his lifelong support for oppressed people worldwide. He may have retired, but his religious conviction dictates that he speak out against injustice. Nothing wrong with that!
zwelinapster
Posted 234 days agoThey didn't even have the guts and decency to openly reject the visa application and provide reasons. Instead they stalled everything till the last moment and hid like cowards.
Welcome to the new reality and to the consequences of 2/3 majority.
Bokoloshe
Mercenary
Posted 234 days agoMisterWendal
Posted 234 days agoHow sad but true! Those who actively opposed apartheid in uncomfortable circumstances within the country, got the short end of the stick when the ANC started dishing out jobs to their cadres. The role of the broader UDF community (made up of a wide range of multiracial civic, religious, educational, etc bodies) who are well qualified to assist in democratising our country, was overlooked in favour of exiled ANC comrade cadres.
UDF unites - ANC divides!
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
How much do you know about politics? It seems like it's not much that you know.
Where the hell do you think Lekota came from, as well as Gwede Mantashe, Jeremy Cronin, 'Kortbroek' van Schalkwyk, Themba Godi, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, Barney Pityana, Sipho Mzimela..........the list is endless, and besides, it's useless trying to give facts to a fool like yourself.
SuiGeneris
''''''How much do you know about politics?'''''''''''
========================================
Mr Knowall......Your comment is a dead give-away that you live in a perception vacuum, and that be YOUR perception of what is right.
There is a massive difference between what you might perceive as right and the truth and nothing but the real truth
MisterWendal
I didn't serve time on Robben Island, gave MK training a miss, didn't seek exile in neihbouring countries, wasn't imprisoned, etc. The closest I got to the apartheid policemen was hurriedly dispersing after class boycotts at our school after serious threats by the boers.
I suggest you do some research on the UDF, as judging from your list of names you obviously are either clueless or indoctinated with false ANC propoganda.
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you only care about the contributions that were made by members of the UDF? It is only them that you want rewarded for their contribution? Is that the sense I get from your response?
I mentioned a list of individuals that were not 'overlooked' by the ANC, but were included in government. Instead of acceding that they were not members of the ANC, you instead refer me to the history of the UDF. I am tempted to refrain from my language of upbringing, but you force me to keep to it. F...you. ANC is a broad church, we welcomed former apartheid bas.tards in our movement for the sake of democracy. Who would have imagined that Wouter Basson will be a free man under the ANC government after he killed so many Africans?
Undress
How would you explain the suden demise of UDF when formerly banned political formations were allowed to operate? The answer is simple. The same people who used constite UDF found political expression via the ANC.
It is like saying COSATU should form a political party simple because you tens of thousands people marching under the banner of COSATU. What you forget is that the same people have ANC membership.
The UDF talk exposes a lack of understanding of the south african political landscape
Bokoloshe
Bukes
Posted 234 days agoHappy birthday Tutu enjoy it before you get older again.
MisterWendal
ACP
Undress
Again, a typical example of white guilt trying to rewrite history in order to cast itself anew. What is the 'wide-gap' between the ANC as liberation movement and the ANC as a political party that people are talking about? Obviously slight differences will be there, necessitated by the ned to govern. But at value/ principle level, the ANC is still the same party that ushered south africa into democracy.
There white guilt is too have for many, hence the sudden pose by many whites that they have always been on the side of justice. First, they did not support apartheid; second they wer part of the liberation struggle/ UDF; and next time they will claim to be black. This convenient metarmophosis is really sickening.
We all know that apartheid had agents/ actualisers and 98% of those were whites.
davidmlaba
You are hanging onto yesterday's illusions. Open your eyes to today's reality. Why would there be such an outcry in this country if there was no discontent simmering below? There would be none....there would be no story and the Arch would have been irrelevant. Clearly this is not the case and if you cannot see that he has touched a nerve in this country, then your eyes are closed.
The Arch is simply speaking the truth as he did when Madiba chose HIM (not you) to run the Truth and Reconciliation Council. So please, before you give your holier-than-thou speech, study a little history of your own country. Do you think you could do as much for people as he has? Try stepping up! I challenge you.
samsam
Posted 234 days agoBack to crux of the matter, Dalai Lama was suspected of his political activities, it was nt mere a birthday party visits per se, denying him a visa was a blessing in disguise now that we know what was the party all about from his friend Desmond Tutu.
The fact of the matter is , Chinese invested huge funds to create jobs in SA, should this not be in the interests of investors the people who voted ANC unlike Desmond Tutu wont suffer when the investors pull out.
The message is ANC will never bite the dust in my times, believe me
dwnwitjuju
Is one speech in SA going to change anything the Chinese do or say? No. China is one of the America's biggest trading partners, yet the USA grants The Dalai Lama visas on a regular basis.
If you like being the lap-dogs of the Chinese government, then so be it. But do you really think the Chinese give two sh1ts about you? They want resources - plain and simple.
ACP
On match day I proudly wear my "official Sprinbok shirt" with label that says "made in China" and my "South Africa" cap that is made in China! And occasionally I get out my 2010 World Cup shirt that was....oh yes I nearly forgot, made in China!
But I forget that the Chinese are right this minute investing large amounts into our clothing industry to create jobs at the expense of their industry. Get real!
proudySA
China is the ANC's friend, not South Africa's friend!
The_Afrikan
are you even aware that China owns 51% of standard bank? the largest representing the largest foreign direct investment in the country to date.
MrJikelele
davidmlaba
What is the meaning of the constitution, which so many have died for when it is sacrificed so easily? Is life that cheap?
The reason SA needs huge funds is because it did not know how to govern properly in the first place to create wealth and its own autonomous internal success story. Therefore, it has to enter an abuser / abused relationship where it must kowtow to the master.
South Africa's ANC is appearing very much as if they have been caught red handed because of their obvious manipulations. And now the Times has evidence that they were going to deny him a visa when the govt mouthpiece said that they were going to give him one....how foolish they appear! Bungling. Oh what a web we weave, those who set out to deceive.
SA could only be in this position to invest with China because of people like the Arch. Every aspect of this country owes a debt of gratitude to people like the Arch and His Holiness who fought alongside him to win your hard earned freedom....the same freedom that allows you to now criticize them. See how it work?
Bonganani
Posted 234 days agoUndress
OTTOOTTO
Posted 234 days agoACP
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
He was refered to as a lunatic a month ago by the white people when he said they must pay rich taxes. Now that he tickles their fancy, he suddenly becomes their icon. It's a shame to have 'loose-necks' in our midst.
proudySA
proudySA
I can name you quite a few British and American companies that this country is reaping plenty reward from, and yet they are seen as oppressors.
Undress
It is OK to be critical of government (I myself am - very much so in fact), because ceratinly there are a number of things that sucks with the ANC led government. However, the problem with tutu is the manner in which he is doing this. He is an alarmist who always like to throw tantrums like a spoilt two year old.
To say the ANC government is worse that the apartheid government is to commit a cardinal sin, which he must apologise for if he wants to enter heaven when time ends. His statement is an offense to black people who lived under apartheid state.
davidmlaba
It's so easy to sit back and criticize others. What have you done for your country today? How much impact have you had?
Of course everyone wants jobs but if the government isn't so ineffective and corrupt, it wouldn't have to sell out the country. It would develop the resources, especially the human resources properly and create wealth. Instead, you have a completely dysfunctional education system. No wonder you have to get into bed and prostitute yourself!
Get proper people who know how to govern in power. Then it would not have to be enslaved to the world's bully. I don't know about you but I don't like to live in an abusive relationship...do you?
dwnwitjuju
Posted 234 days agoJoe-Higgins
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
Posted 234 days agoSuiGeneris
proudySA
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
Sometimes people get lost at their moment of euphoria they even forget to make sense, yourself included.
Tutu just exposed the selfish minion in himself by his outbursts and people, especially white people, doesn't take notice. It's not the first time that Dalai Lama makes a visa application. First time it was granted, the second time it was declined, now it's his third application and it has not yet been approved nor declined but already white people are losing the screws that bind their brains, not that they have any.
Why didn't Tutu make the same claims as he is making now on previous applications? He is making this stupid rants because it's his birthday and he wants to 'pop' balloons with Dalai Lama, not that he cares about Dalai Lama's visit.
HE JUST WANTS TO PLAY WITH DALAI LAMA ON HIS BIRTHDAY - FINISH AND KLAAR.
proudySA
MisterWendal
At least quote facts if you want to put up an intelligent argument. The Dalai Lama has visited South Africa three times already - he was the guest of both Presidents Mandela and Mbeki!
SuiGeneris
================================================
''''''''The Times has learnt reliably that the government was to inform him yesterday that his application had been denied.'''''''''''''''
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I will just refer you to my comment much further to the top to confirm once again that you live in a perception dream - your own dream.
When you wake up - Call me !
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
...At least quote facts if you want to put up an intelligent argument. The Dalai Lama has visited South Africa three times already - he was the guest of both Presidents Mandela and Mbeki!...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah right! What happened after Dalai Lama visited SA on the previous occasions? Did Tutu mention anything about the atrocities of the Chineses government? Did he care about the suppression of the Chinese labour force? Did he praise the SA government for granting the visa on those previous occassions?
Why the sudden outbursts from this 'little man'. He was in fact the reason the apartheid government took so long before it released Pres. Mandela, because he was always touted as the first SA black president.
While at it, ask yourself why the New Zealand government refused to give Dalai Lama a visa. The Lama is not only a SA problem.
SuiGeneris
''''''Why the sudden outbursts from this 'little man'''''''
======================================
It is clear that you always belittle anyone who is against zuma.
4Khomotso_4rom_Attridgeville
...It is clear that you always belittle anyone who is against zuma.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not belittling anyone, Tutu's name of endearmet is ''the little bishop'', don't you know that?
Just like Basson he is known as ''Dr Death'', Marthinus van Schalkwyk is ''Kortbroek'', The late Botha was known as ''Die Groot Krokodil'', Ter'Blanche was known as ''Mof.fie'' -
Are you refering to these terms as 'belittling'? Think again, don't get all worked up over nothing.
Do you know why New Zealand refused Dalai Lama entry? Stick to the topic instead........
davidmlaba
QuestionAll
Posted 234 days agoThere are always consequences to actions. He should have thought of that back then when he affiliated himself with the ruling party.
And anyway, who is the Dalai Lama that he should get special dispensation that the average person does not??
zwelinapster
Perhaps you should direct your question at the Chinese Communist Party instead?
The bigger issue here might not even be the Dalai Lama himself - but rather the undeniable now proof that the Chinese Communist Party has officially and literally bought the ANC - and thus indirectly bought South Africa?
How does that feel?
proudySA
mmba
That is what the anc is protecting, more than anything else.
davidmlaba
The Dalai Lama gets no special dispensation....he gets the opposite, or have you not been following the news? It's obvious to anyone who can read between the lines (but not to someone who doesn't) that he has been shafted, to put it mildly. And now, the Times has reliable proof that they were going to deny the visa to him....quite contrary to what the government mouthpiece said that they were going to grant it to him...oops...SNAFU!
A high percentage of all marriages fail too. So why do people bother getting married?...because they cannot predict the future. Why did he affiliate himself with the ANC? Isn't it obvious? Of course he's affiliated himself with the ANC because there was hope back then. Didn't millions affiliated themselves with the ANC for the same reason? There are consequences to actions....are you saying something other than 1 = 1? Your line of argument is predicated on being able to see the future and is illogical.
MisterWendal
Posted 234 days agoAchilles1967
Posted 234 days agoThings like this make me sad to be a South African eventhough I belong here more than the ANC and it's followers. They do not represent me either! I am proudly coloured, a label that I embrace cause I know myself!
It is with sadness that I admit that one day we will probably have to take up arms to fight for our freedom once again!
I will also pray for their complete downfall and I believe that God will answer my prayer, as I am a true believer. One can say that these comrades do not believe in God. They are communists hiding behind the veil of democracy.
I will not build my house on the foundation of oppression, lies and corruption. None of my bricks will be supplied by communists who do not believe in the rights and freedom of the people. The ANC is riding a slippery slope. They sold this country out to communists! Their foundation is weak and will surely crumble and give in.
They depend on their follower's ignorance and are not disappointed!
Why oh why, Mr De Klerk did you give our country to communists? Do you have regrets cause you see what is happening to our beautiful land? Is there perhaps a cool-off period, so that you can cancel this contract and give the country back to it's people? I am only hoping here.
We will reap what we sow. The pigs are already devouring what the people has sowed. Lift your eyes towards the Lord before it is to late.
Bokoloshe
dopla1967
Posted 234 days agoANC4life
Achilles1967
cANCerSurvivor
This Dalai Lama situation has shed some light on exactly how far we are up the Chinese bums and who the ANC is scared of. What about all this talk of empowerment and black conciousness?!
I'm sure its much more to do with the money though. Isn't there a Zuma and a Gupta who are getting a HUGE deal from the China Railway?!
proudySA
davidmlaba
A lie told enough times becomes a truth that those who buy into manufactured consent are easily fooled by.
"As ANC members will not tolerate anything that undermines our government."...very telling...you said the government FIRST before ANYTHING else....the ANC members are for the GOVERNMENT, NOT the people!
Why must you use that language of force?....NOT TOLERATE...is language of control and fear, not openness and sharing. It's consistent with the way this country is being run, isn't it?
The Arch is for THE PEOPLE, not a government that does not represent them. That sounds more like true democracy to me...and in line with the Arab Spring and Occupy Wall Street.
Achilles1967
I could'nt have said it any better. Great words and explanation! Thanks and well done. God Bless you.
proudySA
Posted 234 days agoWe all know the oppression that is happening in Tibet is no different from oppression that is happening in Israel and even oppression that happened during apartheid, the Chinese see the Dalai Lama just like the Nationalist Party saw the ANC. Yet the double standards of the ANC on this so called "equality, non-racial, pro-democracy, pro-freedom" slogan they have is more than pathetic and fake. As long as it is in the interests of the ANC, so oppression and equality is allowed to make way!
proudySA
Posted 234 days agoBrats
Posted 234 days agoOn the visa, is it a right?
Tutu, is this party not going to happen without Dalai? If so why don't you have a second round of your birthday somewhere in Australia or New Zealand and that you can have him there if you so wish, we can't have people throwing their toys out of the cot we have a lot to deal with in South Africa already than worry about spiritual leaders to entertain their friends.
proudySA
MisterWendal
"The Dalai Lama had been invited to attend Tutu’s 80th birthday celebrations, deliver the inaugural Desmond Tutu International Peace Lecture, give lectures at Wits and Stellenbosch universities, and accept the Mahatma Gandhi peace prize in Durban."
Imagine the inconvenience to all the international and local invitees to these lectures, not to mention the organisers, The Desmond Tutu Foundation!
PolyTix
Posted 234 days agoSo typical of a dysfunctional political party. The despot Aristide was however more than welcome, our dear anc entertaining him to the tune of R40 million over 5 years. The anc also went out of their way to embrace the tyrants of Myanmar. Gaddafi and Robber Mugarbage all firm favourites of our beloved anc
The anc also made huge fools of them in the UN Security Council bu also siding with the dictators and skunks of the world.
Isibhanxas – all of them
StraightToThePoint
Posted 234 days agoBrats
proudySA
The_Afrikan
Posted 234 days agoAnyway, its obvious why we cant give the Dalai Lama a VISA, we cant risk FDI since China is our biggest trade partner. Not the UK or USA but China.
All the government had to do was communicate its reasons to the public.
proudySA
And is the FDI from China you talking about not FDI only for the high ranks of the ANC? So the ANC supports oppression in Tibet, as long as there is this Chinese FDI? and oppression is ok as long it is it not a white that is the oppressor?
Do you even know the size of the trade deficit that SA has with China, which means on the trade side of things, China is raping us???
As for a white tax, it is basically only whites who are currently carrying the country with taxes.
PolyTix
PolyTix
The_Afrikan
China is our biggest trading partner...an economic fact that means we do more business with them than any other country in the world. FACT.
Germany is 2nd.
All other points you make are OPINIONS derived from your anger with government. NOT FACTS.
please go to the SARS website where the info your looking for is readily available.
proudySA
try googling -> trade deficit and then try SA trade deficit with China
proudySA
Posted 234 days agoBrats
I dont see them having vigils over a number of people that get killed on our roads, I don't see them marching to parliament over secrecy bills, I don't see them outspoken about young people who can't get bursaries yet the very same Tutu institution gives money to the already monied for overseas studies so you tell me what has the coming of the Dalai has got to do with me as a South African? It is not called impatience when people are not granted visas but when services are not delivered so Tutu must make up his mind what he wants to tell us.
He had never made a secret that Zuma does not represent him am just wondering what is he still doing here because Zuma is still president, I don't mind him attacking him on his approach as a president but he must not be all over the place grasping straws.
proudySA
proudySA
The_Afrikan
black people have always thought that way...even before you and i were born. Come election time they just choose the devil their more comfortable with i.e. ANC over DA.
proudySA
dopla1967
Posted 234 days agovatiekakie
Posted 234 days agoand we South Africans just love fighting over nothing, who is this Lama anyway in the greater scheme of things? and Tutu should fight his own spoilt-brat fights for his birthday toys like the lama.
proudySA
Highway
Brats
vatiekakie
Brats
Posted 234 days agoIt was figuratively that the US refuses visa (that does not mean it does not happen) having said that the idea was that people do not cause a national crisis over it, Tutu wanted a friend to come for a social event what has that got to do with the urgency???? I can hardly think not making it to a friend's party is a national crisis unless of cause he wants to add to his cronicles that he had him come to his house or to his birthday. Would you then say we really need to have such a national interest in this story???? How many people are refused Visas and especially those who genuinely need it, why is Tutu not an advocate for those who are not granted visas, I just think he is behaving like a typical spoilt brat who always want to have his way with everything and sadly it does not work that way.
I don't think it is fair for him to personalise the matter to Zuma because it just makes him sound like a bitter and sore looser he should attack the DIRCO people Zuma does not grant visas although some might argue that he has influence as he does with all the other departments but don't cheapen your cause by being petty, he needs to play the ball not the man.
proudySA
The Dalai Lama is a peaceful man, who is obviously a massive threat to China, who knows what this man has to say that China fears will be exposed...........guess the National Party was worried about the same things when the ANC made frequent visits to London and Washington.
proudySA
Achilles1967
There is a great lesson to be learnt here! At times I cringe to be a human being in this world with so many ignoramuses in charge. I foresee doom only, as prophesied in Revelations
The Dalai Lama is not an average person(like you), he spreads a message of peace and hope for all the oppressed. And by the way, Zuma is supposed to be the president and he has the last say, so Tutu is right in pointing at him. Zuma is a poor excuse for a leader and more of a puppet than anything else. He is being used and uses others to enrich himself and his family. The stupid poor will stay poor with people like him in charge!
I fear that you, supporter of the ANC, will bite off your own tongues one day. I rest my case!
Razzo
Posted 234 days agoBrats
Posted 234 days agoagain, i have been twice refused visa to the state with my boss, for stupid reasons we had official passports, plus attending the G20 so don't tell me bull because being issued with the visa is at the discretion of that particular state hence the american are the most horrible when it comes to allowing peeople in with their processes so I am not understanding your assertation. As must as we can speculate on why he was not granted the visa it still does not make it a right for him any state has a right to refuse my point being how many people are granted and how many are refused why is Tutu making this a national crisis is what I am trying to find out from you it has nothing to do with the people of SA hence I fail to understand your assertation of the visa not being granted and the fact that we are growing impatient of double standards, if maybe it was a criminal act or fraud you could link the two where I would most likely agree with you but as of now am not sure in what way are you referring to double standards? Visa was not granted and we all know that the SA gov has links with China so what is a double standard there because from what everyone is saying it is clear where SA gov loyalties lie.
proudySA
The decision not to allow the Dalai Lama was to protect Chinese interests in Tibet.
Ndlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoChina is RSA biggest trading partner and as such, their feelings matter on this issue (those in the private sector knows that one's biggest shareholder holds a bigger influence in an organisation.
Mina what I am glad about in this matter is the following, "the Dalai Lama - who first applied in June for a visa to visit South Africa - withdrew his application because he did "not want to create any inconvenience to anyone, individuals or governments,"
Grandpa needs to remember the following Usixolele izono zethu njengoba sibaxolela abasonayo.
proudySA
The_Afrikan
The USA trade deficit to China is the largest in the world....$252 billioin 2010, i guess their trading also means nothing.
Razzo
Posted 234 days agoAdam Habbib, a political analyst was denied Visa into the US and he is not a criminal or terrorist. Speak factually before blindly defending.
Brats
The_Afrikan
and i don't think most of us agree with the government's decision...some of us understands the reasons that money is king of all devils.
proudySA
proudySA
Posted 234 days agoWhat is SA's reason for not allowing the Dalai Lama in??? maybe because big baas china might throw a fit because the ANC is in huge debt to China for assistance in the so called struggle?
The_Afrikan
So whatever the US does you believe in? where are the WMD?
proudySA
Razzo
Posted 234 days agoproudySA
The middle east is a different issue to tibet.
Brats
Posted 234 days agoproudySA
Achilles1967
The_Afrikan
you defend Tibet but say Palestian is a different issue...How so?
Does China oppresses Tibet?
Does Israel oppress Palestian?
Is the US, UK led war in Iraq not illegal under international law?
proudySA
proudySA
Brats
It is wrong of you to say this is an ANC decision because it is a DIRCO decision, processes are not the same, secondly I can hardly call this an oppression because he is coming here for his social visit to an old friend why are we held hostage by Tutu? Tutu does not represent me so he better stop saying we people of south african because I have my own views and opinions so does he, and he must focus his energies on looking forward to his birthday party and not on one guest who can't make it so I am not sure what is the hoolabaloo is about this whole thing really. Is it a national crisis or should we view it as such??? I think not.
The_Afrikan
at least we agree on something.
proudySA
Also research on the history the ANC (not South Africa) has with China, then maybe you will understand why there is an out cry in SA and why it was an ANC decision.
proudySA
Ndlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoI would understand if RSA was the first or the only country (a developing democracy or developed democracy). The US, Germany have done, my god, the England PM, snubbed the Dalai Lama when it was there.
The bigger picture is that, there should be uniformity in terms of how diplomatic relations are handled and managed. Just to digress but also driving a point home. Not so long ago the US and some Euro countries pushed for a resolution (a) "protect" Libyan citizen from a dangerous regime (b) effect a regime change etc. Germany, France were part of that.
But only late yesterday, Germany, Russia & China, vetoe-d a resolution to do the same in Syria.
This illustrates a point that there is more than what meets the eye when it comes to diplomatic relations and how they are managed and handled.
People need to get on with program. R 20 billion earmarked for RSA's infrastructure development being brought by China is much worthwhile than a visit of the Dalai Lama, the more than 13 million South Africans living below povertry line won't eat the visit, but with the R 20 billion, some will get an opportunity to put food on the table for their families.
This is what should have guided grandpa Tutu, as it did with the Dalai Lama
proudySA
The fact of the matter is is that the ANC and its history is based upon fighting against oppression all round the world, yet they are a bunch of wimps when it comes to the oppression in tibet, which clearly shows ANC foreign policy is not about fighting oppression but fighting for its interests, just like every other government in the world, the ANC is just another greedy political party who does not care about freedom or justice
MsLee
Posted 234 days agoAchilles1967
Their demise can only come about by force as they will not by themselves admit the damage that they are doing. Their only agenda is to live it up while their "poor comrades" starve to death.
bongozozozo
Posted 234 days agoRogueTrooper
vatiekakie
Posted 234 days agoproudySA
Posted 234 days agoAchilles1967
Ndlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoAs long as there are some South Africans that continue to call Black people in the min (uneducated & brainwashed), just bcoz they differ with them on the choice of whom they want to lead RSA and her children, the more we will sit on opposite lines and our RACE will be the determining factor
Achilles1967
proudySA
Alexio
Posted 234 days agoAchilles1967
Ndlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoAchilles1967, show me 1 country that has neva did a cover up?, just 1. Secondly, whether you voted for or against the ANC is irrelevant for me. That’s ur choice & secret, which all Freedom Fighters & RSA liberation movements fought for.
To me what matters it is how you place ur argument. How u project ur feelings towards RSA and what is ur perceptions abt the Black People and the ANC as an organization & its leaders.
Its like this nonsense abt corruption. I really don’t think it is BIGGER THAN what people make it out to be.
If I look at how the world find itself in a recession, and who was responsible for it, how those responsible have never been brought to book (by the way there is not a single ANC person there nor a Black person involved there), I just go, “we sure like blowing things out of proportion. Like those idiots that believe that Tupac and Notorious Big we assassinated”. Capiche
ProudlySA, your arguments are the same as Juju’s too much rhetoric, insults and very thin on truth & substance.
Achilles1967
I am sure you find it irrelevant that the average person also fought in the struggle to end apartheid, as they are not the ones enjoying the fruits of this country like all your gravy train comrades.
On the topic of black people, first, all races except whites were classified as black when the anc came into power, but when the handouts started, they were reverted back to coloured, indian, etc. So that only comrades and a few sell-outsenjoyed the benifits. Secondly, black people don't have an automatic ownership of this country as there were races here long before you were driven here by your own ilk.
And don't try to minimize the anc's corruption, because it is at the detriment of the poor of this country. You unfortunately, are one of those who are confused as stated by ProudySA.
samsam
Posted 234 days agoEconomic.Lieutenant
Posted 234 days agoOh boy, he can be such a drama Queen this one!
Didn't he say, the other da,y that he has done with public appearance?
Talk about someone who's obsessed with media attention. *puke*
zwelinapster
Posted 234 days agoThey will be the ones instrumental in guilt-tripping everybody for having an opinion by evoking subtle racial/racist innuendo, or in telling you that there is actually almost no corruption.
Otherwise we might just forget what a propaganda and demagogy in all their glory actually are?
Ndlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoSecondly, I know for a fact that he does have the president's number, he could have had background discusion with the head of State regarding this. Especially when it was discovered that there were certain outstanding things from the Dalai Lama's side.
What he did last night, is the same antics he performed before the 2009 General Elections, by declaring that (a) He will not vote (b) that uNxamalala was not his president, few days later he comes back and says give Zuma a chance and he never disclosed what they discussed with the president. His conduct, is rather opportunistic
AnotherTaxPayer
Posted 234 days agoSpin doctor backpedal...
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 234 days ago.......Of course it is far easier with a dumb partner, easy to take personal 'appreciation tokens' under the table on condition of absolute obedience.........But the Archbishop surely knew this for long time........
Any political embarrassment for the Zuma/ANC government is well worth a pocket full of Benjamin Franklins............
Vikingblood
Posted 234 days agoNdlwananhle-kayi-1
Posted 234 days agoWheretoknow
Posted 234 days agoIf a white run gov had to deny the same Visa they would all be quiet.Deny this idiot, it is the ANC run Governemnts right and perogative.But due to a black run Government refusing it they are all on the band wagon. Tutu is as two faced as them all.
Face it you so called graduates, China will rule the world soon, as the biggest economy at present, America, owes China Trillions of Dollars in debt, accept the fact that soon all will be made in China, including most African leaders. Those that have the money has the power.....
RogueTrooper
Can't wait to see you and your ilk do a turnabout when the real reason China is 'helping' Sa comes to light and you finally see that your ANC has sold you down the river for a handful a gold...
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 234 days ago....China will own Africa soon. They know how easy is to buy their governments........
Razzo
At least the Chinese dont kill the African Governements via Regime change or Structural Adjustment Programs (SAP's) like US and NATO alligned governements.......
zwelinapster
Posted 234 days agoSo what's this gloating about? Are you prepared to surrender to your new masters and become a slave to a one-party ruthless communist dictatorship - with all repercussions? Have you heard the saying what goes around comes around? Are you sure you are gonna like it when they are done with you?
bis_k'hallawaya
Wheretoknow
Razzo
Posted 234 days agoLet me ask: What would we prefer here as in our national interest......the creation of jobs via China or to be politically correct and piss off China?
If China had influenced our Govt to stop the Dalai Lama's visit, from where im sitting, I would honestly prefer to side with them and see this investment through rather than pi$$ it away just because it was seen to be politically correct to do so........*Think national interest* and not personal interest.
And again, this was the Govt's decision and not the ANC.....VISA's are not issued at Luthuli House....Some call me stupid for saying that. I guess its a stupid fact then!!!
Wheretoknow
Well said, well stated, glad someone can grasp the facts.
Should China be pissed off with us, and jobs are shed the same isiots here will blame the ANC GOV, difficult to please those that dont want to grasp..
bis_k'hallawaya
RogueTrooper
See that puffy bit of flesh protruding from the front of your face? It's a nose...try looking further than the end of it...for a change. China are not here to help anybody but themselves...hmmm...kinda like the elite at Lithuli House actually....birds of a feather I guess.
Razzo
Rogue, like i said, i would much rather prefer doing business with the Chinese (call them the new oppressors if you want) but I know that they never colonised anyone and nor did they bomb any country to effect regime change for their benefits.
RogueTrooper
Revolutionalised-Biko
Posted 233 days agoWheretoknow
Posted 233 days agozwelinapster
Rather be an informed idiot than an uninformed one?
bis_k'hallawaya
RogueTrooper
Wheretoknow
Posted 233 days agoRogueTrooper
Razzo
Posted 233 days agobis_k'hallawaya
Posted 233 days agoBeelzebub
Posted 233 days agoZUMA AND COMPANY BOW DOWN PROSTRATE FOR CHINESE IMPERIAL MASTERS
Taboy
Posted 233 days agoWatch out ANC, watch out!!!
Your supporters are still to awaken out of their slumber and see the current government for what they really are...
Razzo
Posted 233 days agoRogue, we still revere the Dalai Lama as an importnat person but he is and shall never be far above our collective national interest (note collective and not individual) of SA. At this point in time, we need jobs and not a prayer!! (no pun intended there as i re-read my last sentnece - lol)
RogueTrooper
Also, I don't believe that you do hold the Dalai Lama in reverance because if you did you would not be supporting the facist, despotic, human rights violators that is China...their track record sits in the same folder as Stalin, Gaddafi and Mugabe to mention but a few of the ANC's other heroes and friends.
It would seem that you support the ANC's notion of selling out the youth of this countries future for a handful of gold....love to see how you feel about the Chinese 'help' in a decade or so when they have left Africa depleted of it's only real economic power...it's natural resources and left nothing of value behind while your 'leaders are kicking back on some tropical island sipping cocktails and singing struggle songs...
POST94
Posted 233 days agobis_k'hallawaya
.....Zuma does not know what Dalai Lama and what a visa are, by his own public acknowledgement.....It is not his field......
A dictatorship on the right or the left is.....a dictatorship...........
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 233 days ago"""""At least the Chinese dont kill the African Governements via Regime change or Structural Adjustment Programs (SAP's) like US and NATO alligned governements......""""""
______________________________________________________________________________________
Correct!!......The Chinese don't kill African Governments....The Chinese and every other one interested, BUY the African Governments given their love for easy money.......The Chinese don't bother to kill,..... they leave that to the African Governments........
Lepara1
Posted 233 days agoAs for the Dalai Lama, its Economical boost from China or Dalai Lama's SMILE!!!
Leave Politics to Politicians, it is 17 since democracy was reinstated while on the other hand it took Verword over 40 years of Apartheid enjoyment in our country.
BarryPotgieter
JohnnyEnglish
Posted 233 days agoI did not think that was possible !
BarryPotgieter
inkunzi
Posted 233 days ago1 Timothy 2:1-2 (NKJV)
-----------------------------------
So Arch, which bible do you read? I bet God will not hear your prayer to bring down your government. Besides, this is a personal matter and not a national crisis. The lama would have done nothing for me but eat cake with you. So take it up with the relevant dept and let's keep Thuli's Madonsela's important work on the front pages. That will make a difference in my life.
bis_k'hallawaya