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Sat May 26 13:42:39 SAST 2012

Give us space to govern: Zuma

CAIPHUS KGOSANA | 02 November, 2011 01:10
President Jacob Zuma. File photo.
Image by: KEVIN SUTHERLAND

President Jacob Zuma says the executive should decide on government policy and how it is implemented - not the courts.

Speaking at a joint sitting of parliament to bid farewell to former chief justice Sandile Ngcobo and to welcome his successor, Mogoeng Mogoeng, Zuma said that the executive must be allowed to do its work without the threat of litigation hanging over its head.

"Our view is that the executive, as elected officials, has the sole discretion to decide policies for [the] government," he said.

"The executive must be allowed to conduct its administration and policy-making work as freely as it possibly can."

Zuma said he was aware that when he raised similar sentiments in the past they sparked a heated debate in the legal fraternity.

"In our view, the principle of separation of powers means that we should discourage the encroachment of one arm of the state on the terrain of another, and there must be no bias in this regard," he said.

"The powers conferred on the courts cannot be regarded as superior to the powers resulting from a mandate given by the people in a popular vote."

Mogoeng's nomination for the position of chief justice followed a controversy caused by Zuma's attempt to extend Ngcobo's five-year term.

Relying on a clause in the act that specifies the salaries and employment conditions of judges, Zuma triggered a legal row when he tried to get Ngcobo to stay on for another five years.

The Justice Alliance of SA, the Centre for Applied Legal Studies and the Council for the Advancement of the SA Constitution challenged in court hi s decision to extend Ngcobo's term on the grounds that the procedure he had used was flawed.

Ngcobo later declined Zuma's offer, electing to step down on August 14 - the date set for his retirement - shortly before the Constitutional Court ruled that the law used to extend his term was unconstitutional.

Mogoeng's nomination, however, did not go down well in legal circles. Many believed that Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke should have been the preferred candidate.

Zuma's warning comes after several ANC leaders - including secretary-general Gwede Mantashe, NEC member Ngoako Ramatlhodi and ANC Youth League president Julius Malema - rallied against what they perceived to be efforts by pressure groups to usurp the role of the government through the courts.

This is after interest groups threatened to institute a spate of legal challenges against government action and laws with which they disagreed, including the controversial Protection of Information Bill.

The bill was put on ice by the ANC following a public outcry.

Mantashe told the Sowetan newspaper at the height of the controversy over Mogoeng's nomination that "the independence of the judiciary and the separation of powers must never be translated into hostility".

"You can't have the judiciary that seeks to arrest the functioning of the government," Mantashe said.

At a press conference shortly after Judge Colin Lamont's ruling declaring the phrase "Shoot the Boer" to be hate speech, Malema said the courts were being used to reintroduce apartheid through the back door.

Ngcobo told MPs yesterday that no arm of government could claim to be superior to any other.

"There is no branch that is superior to others in the service of the constitutional mission of the republic," he said.

Ngcobo said the courts did not earn public confidence by overturning or upholding legislation.

"It is earned by the judiciary demonstrating through its conduct and the well-reasoned judgments it produces that it holds the scales of justice evenly," he said.

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AMS-Dammer

Posted 206 days ago
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"GOVERN" is NOT a Zulu... Pedi or Xhoza word!!!!!

"STEALING" is more like it....

Headline should read:

"GIVE US MORE SPACE TO STEAL........"
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ShLace

Posted 205 days ago
I do not care about the vitriol you spew in your first two sentences. Its Ggabbagge!!!

But I dig your suggestion for the headline and have a suggesstion for a minor addition:
"GIVE US MORE SPACE TO STEAL, SHAG, & ABORT"
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Anderson232

Posted 205 days ago
I'm not sure what to make of your first line in your statement. I hope you know what you're talking about.
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ChickenRunner

Posted 205 days ago
BEWARE! Present and future African dictators like to circumvent the Constitution so they can implement their total control over what they perceive as their Kingdom.

BornintheRSA

Posted 206 days ago
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The courts have an obligation to ensure that the government does not implement policies and laws which are unconstitutional (there is a lot in that word). In this context, the government is empowered to govern.
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ChickenRunner

Posted 205 days ago
Showerhead does not get this and will never understand it

sistachick

Posted 206 days ago
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Ag nee man! This man is confused. First he wants government to work faster and now he wants space. This is why nothing ever gets done in this country - it's a maybe/maybe not - ja well no fine.

Highway

Posted 206 days ago
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as citizens we should be able to have an independent body that decides if our rights are being infringed, and we should be able to seek some form of redress, the majority can not trample on the rights of the minority nor can those with power wield exclusively for their own benefit and in pursuance of goals that they alone believe are right...Mr Zuma or ANC should state in which cases the courts have determined policy for this country, the courts are guided by the constitution and when our rights are threatened surely we should seek redress... so now Zuma wants to govern and make decisions without anyone questioning him...how many questionable decisions has he made in the past few years? and now we should all just shut up and say he has free reign to do as he wills?

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 206 days ago
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Is Zuma saying that the institution that makes the country's laws (the legislature) is now somehow above those laws?
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DannyArcher

Posted 206 days ago
I think he's saying, "F*#k the constitution."

Missed you. :)
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 206 days ago
Hi Danny :)

When has he said anything other than "f*ck the constitution" ?
Not like he had any love and respect for the judicial system to start with
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NeoBlack

Posted 205 days ago
You guys are very childish or perhaps even mentally retarded. why should jz love the constitution? we are not talking about emotions here, but matters of principle.
the judiciary is not the only institution whose rights have to be upheld at all costs in a constitutional democracy. neither is the so-called minority. we all have rights irrespective of whether we are regarded as minority or majority.
it is non-sensical for the minorities to feel that they can always hold the majorities in ransom in the name of the constitution.

I for one see many frailties with the south african constitution and i am not of the view that we should defend it at all cost.

MisterWendal

Posted 206 days ago
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What's the point of a Constitution if the government has a veto power over it?

SuiGeneris

Posted 206 days ago
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This is just a continuation of zuma's plan of action to give the anc total power over the constitution, to do whatever they wish to do, and a run-on on the appointment of his pupet Mogoeng Mogoeng.

This is what the DA said on his appointment.

We believe that Judge Mogoeng does not possess the outstanding legal skills (as opposed to ‘usual’ or ‘adequate’) required of a Chief Justice.

We believe he has, in his history as a Judge, failed to display the unwavering adherence and commitment to the Constitution required of a Chief Justice.

We believe that he has not shown himself, in his past judgments, to be suitably defensive of the independence of the judiciary.

We do not believe he enjoys the support, both intellectually and collegially, of the majority of his colleagues on the Constitutional Court, and of the wider legal fraternity.

Lastly, we do not believe he possesses the requisite administrative, accounting and personnel management skills.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 206 days ago
Correction - pupet = puppet
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NeoBlack

Posted 205 days ago
i wonder what is the basis of this belief.

why did the DA appoint/ vote for lindiwe as chair over and above anthol trollip? is it because lindiwe was the best candidate? i think not. i think the decision was more 'startegic' than anything.
the smae goes with the appointment of mogoeng mogoeng.
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NeoBlack

Posted 205 days ago
... meant 'strategic'.

BobbyBob

Posted 206 days ago
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He is clearly finding the constitution a bit of a problem.
Imagine what he could do without one. For how long would we have an economy left?

ooooooooo

Posted 206 days ago
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"Our view is that the executive, as elected officials, has the sole discretion to decide policies for [the] government," he said.

As long as you stay within the confines of the law. This apply to every citizen including citizens in government. Because you are in government it does not mean you can break the law. So if you find the courts slow you down I suggest refrain from illegal activity.

Rightway

Posted 206 days ago
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You are not and never will be authorised to govern with out the Courts and the Media watching your civil SERVANT ( not master) back like hawks. This is because you and your ANC comrades cannot and never ever will be trusted. You are nothing more then low class thieves of tax payers money with your corruption and incompetence making the ANC the worst government in world history.

MsLee

Posted 206 days ago
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"Our view is that the executive, as elected officials, has the sole discretion to decide policies for [the] government." - And this would be the problem, the fact that government believes it is a power unto itself and is unaccountable to the people ...

NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
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"The powers conferred on the courts cannot be regarded as superior to the powers resulting from a mandate given by the people in a popular vote."

I CAN'T AGREE MORE. WELL-SAID MR PRESIDENT.
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ooooooooo

Posted 206 days ago
The constitution in any democracy reigns supreme. You can change the constitution only if you have sixty six and two thirds of the popular vote. As the ANC does not have the required majority it can only govern within the confines of the constitution. So your President is wrong in this instance.
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NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
"When the majority of your voters are easily manipulated, influenced, intimidated, vote on skin colour, and are basically sheep and vote fodder you do not have a democracy.We have majority rule whereby the minorities need protection from the majority"


What a non-sense! Show me a country where people vote from a 'vacuum', and not influenced by one social or personal descriptor or another. 'skin colour', 'class', 'religious orientation', 'gender', 'location/ geography', 'ideology' etc influence people's behaviour in one form or another. Why isloate 'skin colour' and treat any diffrent from other vote or behavioral determinant?
Convince me that your vote is not influenced or even determined by any of the above descriptors/ or personal life experiences. It helps sometimes to self-reflect and think outside our own immediate boxes
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 206 days ago
"The powers conferred on the courts cannot be regarded as superior to the powers resulting from a mandate given by the people in a popular vote." ...... and the powers conferred on the government cannot be regarded as superior to the mandate given by the constitution to the courts.

You can't believe that it is okay have laws that fail to stand up to scrutiny.
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ooooooooo

Posted 206 days ago
Spot on momma.
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Rightway

Posted 206 days ago
In mature democracies like in the West voting is based on Government performance. People change parties and are not loyal to one. What is important in a government is transparency, service delivery and job creation.

The ANC has excellent policies and based on that i could vote for them. However they have a bad track record and are very poor in delivery.Trillions of tax payers money have been wasted and stolen due to incompetence and corruption. You know that.

One should then change your vote to another party with good policies and a better track record. Yet in SA the very people that riot and burn because of lack of service delivery vote for the ANC all the time. Why? We are not yet mature as our voters are still very silly. Our intellectual capital is below average.
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NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
"In matutere democracies like the West...people vote on Government performance...".

Your problem is over-valorisation of the 'West'. Voting patterns and voter behaviour are much more complex than that. You need to contexualise your reasoning and take into consideration the histories of countries concerned before you analyse voter behaviours. Performance is not axiomatic as you may think, but rather viewed within particular cultural ideological prisms. Politics are not just about economics, but values as well. People have to identify with you first before they can attention to the economic/technical models that you advance. That is why is contemporary research discourse we talk of participatory research methodologies, where the emphasis is on role-playing and identification with the objects of research(people) before you can bring in whatever intervention you have. People have values and cultural tastes - and this is universal. You ignore this at your own peril.
Governments (including in the west) have been voted out of office because people could no longer identify with them, irrespective of how they perform in terms of governance.
People are not mere mechanical creatures - they have histories, memories and aspirations which are informed and in turn inform their life experiences. You can call this 'silly', but trust me it is human nature and it affects us all.
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NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
Also, have you ever thought that voting on the basis of 'performance' only (your claim which I do not agree with) could have something to do with the histories of the countries concerned, and nothing to do with supra-human qualities of the citizens of those countries?

South Africa's context is a divided past. People were taught to trust and identify with their own. Blame it on apartheid and colonialism.
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Manduvah

Posted 206 days ago
What a shame!! So if the president decides to govern this country with the ethics of personal gains in his administration and hold maladministration an offense that must simply be dwelt with by simply relieving the person in office without criminal consequences,that will be just? Having robbed the state millions or even billions? who then will protect the interest of the people? Pity that number one citizen of the republic is instead of supporting and protecting the integrity of the judiciary he is the first one to undermine its relevants! Perhaps if he had his Constitution at hand before making such statements he would no better. Jacob Zuma is NOT above the supremacy of the constitution and if he and his executive of whom of late dazzle the front pages of every newspaper in this country with corruption allegations should not be brought before the court than clearly he should resign comfortably to hold office as he clearly has lost it!!
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Rightway

Posted 205 days ago
Neo Black

You are making it too complicated. We need to move on from the past. To call people silly that vote based on solidarity just because they are of the same tribe or culture in spite of failure to deliver is correct. If you reward mediocrity, failure (lack of success), incompetence and corruption by voting for the same party time after time you are not doing the right thing. You know that. Yet you will say that it is ok.
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NeoBlack

Posted 205 days ago
I am not making it too complicated. I am just trying to give expression to this this complexity. Unless we begin to understand and appreciate this complexity, we are doomed. We will continue to refer to others as silly, while in actual fact we are the ones who lack perspective.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 206 days ago
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Lawlessness galore!

master.mind

Posted 206 days ago
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Yeesssss - eerrrmmm - we need space to plunder more funds, release more prisoners, now please leave me alone for a few days to apply my mind as I have been thinking too much lately !!!! kwaakaaakaakaaaa ............

SuiGeneris

Posted 206 days ago
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Doesn't this mean that you want to tamper with the constitution, zuma ?

If I am not mistaken, you need a 67% vote to do that, zuma, and many of your voters are beginning to see right through your farce.....

The anc came very close to the two thirds majority, but thanks to you and the corruption that you allowed to happen within the anc ranks, and of course allowing your wayward son, malema, to publicly shout whatever he wishes, you will never ever see the day that the anc will get 67% of the votes !
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NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
"you will never ever see the day that the anc will get 67% of the votes !"

Be careful of absolute statements like these. Life is characterised by fluidity, and does not always follow a teleological order. You may think that mzanzi's politics are only headed one way i.e the demise of the ANC. However, structures have a way of reorganising and re-ordering themselves. It happens all over the world. The ANC as a structure is capable of self-reconstitution, and you never know the appeal that this reconstitution will have on people.

We must avoid talking as if we CONTROL people's votes. I understand your desperation, and wish that your own were in power.
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buddi

Posted 206 days ago
@Neoblack
Of course the anc CONTROLS the people's votes - by sheer intimidation, bribery, and threats that apartheid will return should the DA run the country.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 206 days ago
''''''''The ANC as a structure is capable of self-reconstitution'''''''''

=================

My gut feeling tells me it is rather a case of self-destruction.....and I will bet on it !
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ooooooooo

Posted 206 days ago
NeoBlack
I agree with you that there are no absolutes in politics. Anything is possible. If you asked me a week before the fall of the Berlin wall if I thought it was at all possible I would have said no. So anything is possible also in South Africa. We can be a dictatorship soon or have a civil war. The secret however is to find the path that will eventually benefit the majority of our people. I think the previously advantaged white community and the current black middle and upper class are not in touch with the plight of the poor and unemployed. This is a dangerous time bomb and the biggest threat to our country. The ANC government has failed in its duty to address this problem. Rhetoric like nationalisation and land redistribution without compensation can never solve this problem but it can create an environment for civil disorder and anarchy. Nothing in our current laws prevent this government to govern Education,Protection services, Housing, Health care etc,etc. From where I observe I see Zuma is getting frustrated with laws making it difficult for government officials who are guilty of maladministration, corruption and non delivery of services.
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NeoBlack

Posted 206 days ago
...My gut feeling tells me it is rather a case of self-destruction.....and I will bet on it !


And I guess your 'gut- feeling' also influence how you vote and interact with the world around. How scientific! It is unbelievable how hypocritc you people can be. You make many decision beased on you 'gut feelings', fears and wot not, and yet you deny other people the opportunity to do the same.

buddi

Posted 206 days ago
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"The powers conferred on the courts cannot be regarded as superior to the powers resulting from a mandate given by the people in a popular vote."

Unfortunately that only works when you have confidence in the government the people vote for. Unfortunately in a third world country, the government voted for 'by the people in a popular vote' is exactly that - popular vote, not the wisest vote.

Mzungu

Posted 206 days ago
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SA Democracy: Steal from people who don't vote for you and handing the loot over to those who do.

only for that reason, "he" wants power OVER the constitution (and courts).

zwelinapster

Posted 206 days ago
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Does anyone realise how dangerous such statements are?

h t t p://w w w.timeslive.co.za/opinion/editorials/2011/11/02/authoritarian-anc-resents-courts-defence-of-rights

MabhebezaEC

Posted 206 days ago
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You've had enough space, now step down!!!!!!!!!!!!!

muk1

Posted 206 days ago
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Can you see the next general election strategy. The ANC will be asking the illiterate and the flock to vote for them because they will need an outright majority of 67% to govern with impunity. He will say that the government can only deliver when the constitution can be changed.

Manduvah

Posted 206 days ago
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Perhaps if the old folk JZ received some tertiary education on Constitutional Law will know the very existence of the Judiciary is in fact there to protect the interest of (All) not just the majority of the people of this country from the abuse of power by the executive and the legislative. If he (president) possessed the necessary qualification to hold office and had high standards of professionalism,the function of the judicary clearly exempts any policy making but only enquires on the validity of such policies in that they comply with the Constitution of which not even the president in the executive can circumvent with his majority authority mandate.

Bukes

Posted 205 days ago
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Where are my comments wena propaganda timeslive editor
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Anderson232

Posted 205 days ago
Sailing down the river mate.............

Rudebaker

Posted 205 days ago
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All my comments have been removed too.

Seems any opinion not shared by their masters must be silenced.

Rudebaker

Posted 205 days ago
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"The powers conferred on the courts cannot be regarded as superior to the powers resulting from a mandate given by the people in a popular vote."

Does this clown-in-a-suit understand what a constitution is, and why civilizations have laws, and that laws are supreme?

"Give us space to govern"
The constitution gives you ample space to govern.
That is of course if you wish to govern like civilized people.

Please DA, come into power, remove these "things" from the Union Buildings and put them all on trial.
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RedCoat

Posted 205 days ago
Neo,

ive been keeping trackof alot of your posts today, and you came accross as a highly educated, rational thinker, Unfortunatley after this comment i find myself reconsidering.

I think you will find that most people that vote DA do so on the basis of thier morals, principals and policys, it really doesnt matter what colour the leader or the MP's are,
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Rudebaker

Posted 205 days ago
I don't mind how black the DA gets, as long as it remains more principled than the ANC.
And I have nothing in common with the FF lunatic fringe...

CrackerCraker

Posted 205 days ago
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President Zuma,

For your own sake you should not fiddle with the rules of the game. If you do you may find yourself helplessly at the mercy of your enemies at some stage in the future. They will use their turn to change the rules to suite them.

The outcome as per the popular vote is not against the country’s constitutionality. People vote for a particular political party for many reasons but definitely not to erode their own freedoms or to support the granting of unconstitutional powers to certain individuals.

Long after you and many of the rest of us are no longer here this country and its inhabitants will still be here. We should not jeopardize their future freedoms because it seems convenient or advantageous to us now.

If only we could be supplied with examples of how the courts have prevented the government to carry out its governmental functions.

Faithfully,

Citizen.