Angry ANC MPs want Turok's head
Angry ANC MPs are mounting pressure on the party to take strong action against veteran MP Ben Turok for breaking ranks in the vote on the Protection of State Information Bill.
The ANC rammed through the controversial bill with 229 votes against the combined opposition's 107.
Turok walked out of the National Assembly as the bill was about to be put to the vote on Tuesday.
Fellow ANC MP Gloria Borman abstained.
The Times has learned that a number of ANC MPs have approached the party's chief whip, Mathole Motshekga, to express their strong objections to what they regard as gross ill-discipline by the two MPs.
"It shows ill-discipline and in whatever form it will always remain ill-discipline," said a senior MP who asked not to be named. "We have had four caucus meetings and not even once did Turok and Borman raise any issues with the bill."
Another MP, who also asked not to be identified, said he was angered by Turok's assertion, on SAfm radio, that ruling party MPs had been given a wrong version of the bill to vote on.
"Who the hell does he think he is? He is implying that we are just idiots who vote without reading. It is condescending and insulting."
ANC MPs are now demanding that a special caucus meeting be held today to give them the opportunity to air their views.
ANC caucus spokesman Moloto Mothapo would not confirm that the party was considering disciplinary action against the two MPs, but said a statement would be issued today.
"For now, this matter remains an internal party matter. When we are ready, we will pronounce on it," he said.
ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu gave the clearest indication that the ruling party was disposed to take strong action against the two.
"The conduct of comrades like Ben Turok, in raising their objections by abstaining and using the media smacks of ill-discipline and will be handled internally by the ANC," Mthembu said.
Turok could not be reached for comment yesterday.
Borman told The Times that she abstained because she had reservations about the effect the bill would have on efforts to expose corruption.
"For me, it seems as if there are obstacles being placed . [it] just puts obstacles in the way. We need to be able to make it easier for people to expose corruption," she said.
Borman, who is in her first term as an ANC MP after defecting from the DA, said she represented a large church-based constituency concerned about the effects of corruption. She said she was in favour of a public interest clause being inserted into the bill as a defence for those exposing wrongdoing by rogue state officials.
"A public interest clause will certainly assist. I am not a legal person and I sought some counsel on it. In my discussions, the accountability side [seemed to be] lacking and there are some contradictions. It would seem a clause like that would definitely help," she said.
With tensions about the passing of the contentious legislation - which criminalises the possession and publication of classified state information - reaching boiling point, Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe has suggested that the ruling party is still trying to find an amicable solution to the dispute with opponents of the bill.
"I think it is important for us to also come back to this issue of the secrecy bill, that all of a sudden dark chambers are being created and so on.
"From my own background as a negotiator, when there is agreement on 90% or whatever, you separate the issues which keep the parties apart and that's what you deal with . you focus on that until you find a meeting point.
"I don't understand why people just dig into their trenches on a matter like that one."
He was replying to questions put to him in the National Assembly yesterday.
The bill has now been referred to the National Council of Provinces for further discussion. If that house passes it, it will be left to President Jacob Zuma to sign it before it becomes law.
Those who object to the bill being passed in its current form are now hoping Zuma will refer it back to parliament or for screening by the Constitutional Court to determine its legality before he signs it.
DA parliamentary leader Lindiwe Mazibuko will hold a press conference today, at which she will be joined by party leader Helen Zille, to outline the DA's plans for stopping the bill becoming law.
The Council for the Advancement of the South African Constitution added its voice to those condemning the bill.
The council urged Zuma to refer the draft law to the Constitutional Court for ratification if the National Council of Provinces passes it without change.
"This is an important piece of legislation that is necessary to protect legitimate state secrets and to protect the sovereign integrity of our nation.
"It should not contain elements that undermine the constitutional rights of ordinary people," it said.
On Tuesday, passionate pleas from media organisations, unions, civil society and other interest groups opposed to the proposed law fell on deaf ears.
ANC MPs voted to approve it in the National Assembly.



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Posted 574 days agoLOL! Is this a projection, or guilty (sub)consciences speaking?
Now that the omerta has been signed - let the witch-hunt begin.
disillusionedstill
Kambula
HughRobinson
A disciplined cadre would have without doubt voted and not reading the bill. Is that not the arguement?
Those that read the bill were against it. The ANC cannot have it both ways. You cannot accuse one of ill discipline, pretent to have read the bill, nodded you head sagely then voted in support. Yours as a disciplined cadre is to agree, not to read or think.
What then was the reason for the specific instruction.
BornintheRSA
Posted 574 days agoPRADO
Posted 574 days agoBobbyBob
AMS-Dammer
Ever seen an ANC member think for themselves?
Thats like FAIRY TALE STUFF!
"You will DO AS I SAY..... NOT what I DO...."!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO!!!!
Sheeple will never change.....
disillusionedstill
Posted 574 days agoProf Turok said on Capetalk that the Bill voted on was different to the Bill debated.
If he is correct, it raises the issue of whether Members actually know what is going on.
An aside is that both Prof Turok and the IFP's Mr Ambrosini, have made the DA spokespeople sound like amateurs.
I984
Please elaborate ?!???
BobbyBob
kirstygall
1. The bill he had been given to read the night before the vote was a version dated 2010
2. There were contradictory clauses in the bill, he gave the example of a section that confirmed everyones right to freedom of speech and then was contradicted by a clause that said that any head of a state organ could classify something as classified.
3. The lack of a public interest clause and stiff sentences for the mere possesion or passing on of classified information.
He was concerned about people like himself inadvertantly giving out classified information, he said that he meets with many different diplomats on a daily basis as part of his job and is often asked his opinion on certain issues and he asked the rhetorical question, what if he inadvertantly tells a foreign dignitory something that has been classified and he is unaware of the fact that it was classified.
Now the above, if true, raises certain worrying issues:
1. How are the MP's supposed to vote on a bill when they were given it the day before the vote. I would imagine this isn't sufficient time to properly read and understand it, especially if you are not a lawyer. If I send my lawyer a simple business contract it takes him 3-4 days to review it.
2. If they were indeed provided with an old version of the bill, why was Prof Trurock the only person to notice that he was given the wrong version. Did no-one else read it? Why didn't the opposition raise the fact that they were voting on an old version of the bill as a reason to postpone the vote? Either they also didn't bother to read it and all the righteous indignation is political game playing or they're incompetent.
And moving on, doesn't it strike anyone as strange that this bill has been plodding along in reviews and is suddenly pushed through parliament just as Zuma opens and inquiry into the arms deal? An to top off matters, he's installed his buddy Mogoeng, Mogoeng as head of the Concourt so even if it does go to the Concourt what are the chances of Mogeong overturning it?
Be afraid, be very afraid!
disillusionedstill
Bottom line - which Bill was on the table?
Liberal-Soul
Posted 574 days agoI take my hat off (literally) to Prof Turok and Ms Borman.
You guys are truelly people of substance and principal.
samsam
SuiGeneris
Posted 574 days ago================================================
And what about the 34 MP's who were absent although they were notified that their presence was compulsory !!!???
Pathetic, I would say !
Feelgood
muk1
Posted 574 days agoSMAB
ThePurplePimp
Posted 574 days agoBobbyBob
samsam
Commissar_Sage_Maverick
Ben Turok is a SACP member who's also been a member of the ANC since the 60's.
These are the SACP Jews who joined the ANC just to confuse it and prevent us from achieving total liberation for the masses.
A.N.D
Posted 574 days agoBobbyBob
SuiGeneris
Posted 574 days ago===================================================
A clear indication that they are not capable exercise their own minds.....
If Sipho jumps off the cliff, I will follow !
Tronn
Posted 574 days agoSuiGeneris
zuma was trained by the communists, [MK] and obviously still think and believe that communism is the answer, covered with a fragile and thin layer of democracy.
Razzo
inkunzi
Posted 574 days ago==================
It worries me how people that claim to be smart and educated always just shoot from the hip without educating themselves on the matter first. Parliament doesn't work like when we vote in the general elections. There are caucuses amongst all the MP's and a vote/a position is taken and recorded by the chief whip. Once the party agrees that this is our position then voting is just a mere confirmation of the party's position.
The reason why an MP can't vote based on their own thought is because they are appointed by the party into parliament. In other words, these MP's are because of the ANC. So that means they are the voice of the party in parly, not their own. Otherwise they would have been standing as independent candidates in the general elections, and not ride on the ANC card.
Now, in this case, after 4 caucuses, once an MP votes differently from the resolution of the caucus they are in breach of party processes. Once they go to the media they are ill-disciplined.
This is simple. Those of us that are in corporate finance know that once our principals say for example that this is how the deal should be structured to benefit the company and create value for stock holders, no one of the M&A team can divert from that. if the counter party has a different proposal and they are firm on their position, we rather go back to the office and come up with a new proposal.
People like to act stupid and criticise just because they can. Had anyone from the DA voted in favour of the bill they would have been fired so why should the ANC act differently. I say they betrayed their organisation they must be punished. I'm not an ANC MP fyi, I'm just not a sheep that goes with any argument even if it doesn't hold water but just because it's against the ANC. But as usual, go ahead and accuse me of being an ANC tenderpreneur.
BobbyBob
Posted 574 days agoI984
Posted 574 days ago==================
And two lone voices would have changed things how exactly?
Not everyone is willing to bang their heads against the brick wall until they bleed.
Sometimes the only possible option left is just to walk away. As evident.
inkunzi
"Sometimes the only possible option left is just to walk away. As evident."
You took the words out of my mouth. Instead of blaming the corrupt ANC, why don't you hold these two accountable for their lack of sticking to their convictions. This bill was discussed since 2008 and only a day after the final vote these three musketeers realise it's not good. They should have joined another party and left the ANC since as you put it, they can't make any change in the ANC. They are weak politicians, Lekota walked away and left gravy to starve in the dessert aka cope. I salute him for that.
I984
I think you must have missed the brick-wall part of my comment.
They walked away precisely because in that situation they had no other option left, and because they chose to stick to their convictions, and to remain faithful to their conscience and ability to tell right from wrong.
There is nothing to hold them accountable for.
For this I would never hold them accountable for.
I would applaud them.
inkunzi
Ok, I just read my post again and realised how poor my command of the borrowed English language is. Let me rephrase: Principled people walk away from organisations that don't have same values ans they. These two should have resigned from the ANC because it's a lie that they voted on a bill they had never seen before.
Even I knew what parliament was to vote on so these MP's knew exactly that the ANC wasn't interested in the public interest clause and they wanted to vote for the bill in it's current form (after 120 amendments). Either these two are part of those MP's that nap during caucus or they are liars. I think they are both. Lazy hypocrites that want to be famous post facto.
Ultimatum-1
Posted 574 days agoRogueTrooper
Razzo
Ultimatum-1
RogueTrooper
@ Ultimatum...why would you consider Afrikaans a 'false' language pray tell?
@ Razzo...for the record I happen to speak several language including one ethnic SA language but I do not believe that that has bearing on this topic.
Ultimatum-1
“speak several language including”
Dont you like to revise the above?
Ultimatum-1
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"
Or just repeat the whole paragraph it doesnt make sense. LMAO
The arrival of Mix it and Face book (Social networks) was the cause of words swap @$$ wipe.
RogueTrooper
“sailed over you head much” -try reading it in context and try...if you can to complete the sentence, perhaps you'll then understand
“speak several language including” - typo...it happens
Dont you like to revise the above?- surely you mean..."Would you like to revise the above?" oh and by the way it's don't not dont
Anyway this is all off topic...
Interestingly you didn't answer my question re: Afrikaans being a 'false' language...
Ultimatum-1
sailed over your head much
“Speak several language including”
Speak several languages including
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"
like I give a sh!t whether it's your 18th language or not
You surely are not a man enough to accept your mistakes.
RogueTrooper
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"
Or just repeat the whole paragraph it doesnt make sense. LMAO
The arrival of Mix it and Face book (Social networks) was the cause of words swap @$$ wipe."
It makes perfect sense if you read correctly and realise that it should have read youR...typo. I am not going to be dragged into your purile little world and argue semantics you little troll. Do us a favour and elevate your end of the debate to at least 14 or 15 years of age or GTFO. Also, read your last sentence because that does not make any sense even if I try to correct the grammar and/or punctuation.
Now grow up because the grown up are talking here princess!
Ultimatum-1
Afrikaans is a fake language because it is fabricated using english material.
Ultimatum-1
I wanted to show you that just as you are pointtng at me some of your fingers are pointing at you aswell, moeeer.LMAO
Razzo
Ultimatum-1
Sure, let carry on with our mandate of defending the truth.
RogueTrooper
You said that Afrikaans is a false language, in your words "Afrikaans is a fake language because it is fabricated using english material"...do you know the origins of the English language and how it is made up of several languages? Obviously not but then, as I mentioned, you are a product of the ANC endorsed education system so you wouldn't.
@ Razzo...if it makes you feel better to consider me in that light then so be it. At least I have independent and original thought and do not just repeat the ANC mantra and tow the party line every time I post on this forum.
@Ultimatum and Razzo...as mentioned you clearly missed my point re: irony in my 1st post so I end the thread here. Please do not display you lack of EQ by hitting back with cute little "heat in the kitchen"...or..."tail between legs"...or...similar school yard quotes to try and show me up as I have wasted enough time with you 2 sheeple
Commissar_Sage_Maverick
Posted 574 days agoRogueTrooper
SuiGeneris
BobbyBob
MisterWendal
Posted 574 days agoThey have assisted in undoing the fight against injustice which was so handsomely accomplished by the mass democratic movement in the '80's (of which almost all of them were part of)!
The_Afrikan
Posted 574 days agoMarcCaldwell
Posted 574 days agoDuring the last election it occurred to me that we were at a turning point. I thought it signalled the rise of the DA and decline of the ANC. But that is too simplistic. But the ANC's shameful passing of the Secrecy Bill against massive public resistance does confirm my original suspicions that we have left one era of democracy and entered an era of 'Black' Fascism (though it grates me to combine those 2 words).
Consider the following timeline:
1943 + 17 years = 1960 - Emergence of Afrikaner nationalism, including NAT election, SA Republic.
1960 + 17 years = 1976 - Consolidation of apartheid
1976 + 17 years = 1993/1994 - Resistance to apartheid, democratic election
1994 + 17 years = 2011 - Consolidation of democracy
2011 + 17 years = 2028 - Return of suppression, Decline of ANC, to end of the ANC
Phase 1: Nats against legacy of British colonialism
Phase 2: NAT rule; Apartheid
Phase 3: Democrats against apartheid and its legacies
Phase 4: ANC rule; democracy
Phase 5: Democrats against 'Black' Fascism
Razzo
Razzo
ooooooooo
And next year the majority will be even greater as a result of all the babies born seventeen years ago as a result of the ANC grants system. They will be eighteen and because of the ANC's failed education system (changed three times during this period) they will be mostly uneducated and vote for the ANC. But where are they going to get jobs? Who will feed them?
They will one day turn on the ANC and that is the day I am looking forward to.
Razzo
ooooooooo
I always held your convictions in this regard but after the appointment of Jacob Zuma as President I have lost confidence in the ANC. They are too fragmented to govern effectively. My view is that it will get worse before it gets better and although I believe there are many good leaders in the ANC they will never be allowed to come forward. They do not even allow members to differ on issues as is clear from the witch hunt currently under way because some members did not vote for the secrecy bill.
Razzo
Posted 574 days agoRogueTrooper
Saif
RogueTrooper
Oh well...perhaps in another time hey
Saif
My 2c insight deviates to most of your propagated comments that might lead this lovely South African ANC runned Govnt to the same situation Europe has fallen into @ the moment, baring the fact that the same situation is still affecting us although we decided to take a backseat.....are you still perhaps considering relocating to Europe since the bill has been voted against your fellow leaders or you are settled down there in mini Europe (Cape Town)?
RogueTrooper
What you refer to regarding SA vs Europe is disingenuous are so far off the topic it deserves no retort. Try sticking to the topic at hand as you have chastised me for not doing.
You stated..."are you still perhaps considering relocating to Europe since the bill has been voted against your fellow leaders or you are settled down there in mini Europe (Cape Town)?"
What makes you think that I had any intentions of leaving my country and home South Africa? Are you prone to making assumptions or do you habitually make stuff up...I'll assume the latter is correct.
Lastly, this vote was not against my leaders...this vote was against our civil liberties (yours included) but as I said in my response to LouLou I do not expect you to see that as you cannot or will not take your nose out of the book of ANC mantras. You will find out the extent of the abuse of power this bill promotes the hard way...by the loss of your future unless you start to see the word for the trees and fight back!
RogueTrooper
Saif
Rogue...Rogue...Rouge, I some times wonder while going through your defence statements whether you have some hidden agenda to reveal or not your loyal leaders who are pretending to be fighting for your "civil liberties" excluding my own through the media, do you honestly think in your rightful sober mind that any individual that shares the same views I have regarding the implementation of this bill would fall for their (oppositions) mandate in drowing this democracy through media by endangering the safety of our fellow brothers and sisters for their own benefit into power .....just sober up Trooper Boy
As for you relocating to Europe it was an option Im suggesting because you will be getting more of these robust debates on this blogg quiet often.....dont be offended we are a rainbow nation...remember....???
ThePurplePimp
Saif
I don't think the Granma (Borman)/DA mole was deployed by your masters, because we just worried on whos mandate is she on, yours/ANC.
RogueTrooper
As for you relocating to Europe it was an option Im suggesting because you will be getting more of these robust debates on this blogg quiet often.....dont be offended we are a rainbow nation...remember....???"
The first part of your post is hard to understand but I think the gist of it is something along the lines of you and your ilk will not and could not fall for the argument by opposition to this bill that it is detrimental to the freedom that we enjoy today...yes? My response...I don't expect you too...you have displayed your clear disdain (or understanding) of resonable logic and most certainly have a blind loyalty to the ANC and I fear that this may lead to a Waco-like ending.
Regarding the 'robust debate on this blogg (forum)'...bring it, that is after all why I am here after an active participant. I will not shy away...in fact after LouLou's post I feel invigorated to re-educate you and your soulless ilk.
Alexio
Posted 574 days agoRazzo
When the Bill was up for scrutiny and debate, this was the time and place for democracy and discerning views, but once the majority has spoken then you soldier on and respect the parties line. If not, You are free to vacate your seat because clearly it is not what you as an individual wants.........thats democracy at work!!
cANCerSurvivor
Ron_x
Apologies if this point has already been covered. By your logic the parliamentary procedure is simply a case of conducting internal caucus meetings, deciding on what the 'party line' is and then repeating the party line again in parliament. If that was truly the way the system was to be conducted - then why include the redundant parliament step. Why not send one MP with 180 voting slips all saying the same thing. My understanding of democracy and its mechanisms is clearly very much out of touch with reality. Here I believed caucus votes would take place to decide whether a particular Bill or Amendment should be put through to parliament, it is then still up to each MP to decide on their particular viewpoints to come to their own voting decision. If procedures were as you explained, can you not see how the system would fail? 50mn people effectively vote in 300 MP's, but you only need a majority vote to put a vote through - so we down to 151 MP's. All of those MP's will come from one party which only needed a majority vote to decide to push the vote through in the first instance - so now we down to 76 MP's. Those 76 MP's were directed by their cabinet of 12? who in turn were directed by JZ himself. If MP's are not allowed to make their own decisions then what exactly is the point of parliament? Does it not become an exercise in futility if all they are doing is repeating a majority decision from a progressively smaller voting pool. Eventually the destiny of 50mn people becomes reliant on one single decision by one individual.
Apologies again if this has already been covered - I acknowledge I am picking up this thread quite late in the game. Apologies also if my assumptions of number of MP's is incorrect. That particular Uni course was a long time ago.
Ultimatum-1
Posted 574 days agothe_original_MommaCyndi
Posted 574 days agoWhy pick on only this one?
Saif
MsLee
Posted 574 days agoOzgood
Posted 574 days ago(2) Who are the ANC MPs who want Turok's head? All of them? Surely they cannot all be unthinking mindless sheep.
(3) Did the absent ANC MP's have to bring in medical certificates
(4) I do believe that some of these part hacks would not find work outside parliament easily
Baas Frik
And next year the majority will be even greater as a result of all the babies born seventeen years ago as a result of the ANC grants system. They will be eighteen and because of the ANC's failed education system (changed three times during this period) they will be mostly uneducated and vote for the ANC. But where are they going to get jobs? Who will feed them?
They will one day turn on the ANC and that is the day I am looking forward to.
There is much logic in what you write
Mnbvcxz0
LouLou
I am a DA supporter but there are a lot of things that they do/promote that i am not in 100% agreement with. I reserve the right to show my dissent by not agreeing to any policy or whatever that I don't agree with. It does not mean that I am not a loyal party supporter - it just means that I have differing views from the leadership in this particular instance.
In a democracy, I have (or am at least supposed to have) the right to exercise my vote as I wish. The singling out of these 2 is yet another indication of the division within the ANC ranks and the desperation shown by it's leadership to show some sort of harmony and unity.
LouLou
Posted 574 days agoInstead of focusing on people's lack of English skills I suggest that you admire them for attempting to do so when the majority of South Africans of hues other than black cannot even speak a single sensible sentence in another language.
And the Bible states that you should take the splinter out of your own eye before attempting to remove the log from your brother's. The word you used in a previous post "purile" is actuallu spelt "puerile" and if English is your fist language then I would also suggest that you are a product of an ANC education.
So many people, when typing their comments, are in a hurry and often don't have time to check their grammar and spelling before hitting the submit button. Why not focus on the issue at hand which is of more importance to this country than people's skills in language?
This country is going to hell in a handbasket and we spend time aon such pettiness? If we (and I include myself here) actually took the time we spent griping on sites such as these about things that we find unacceptable and channelled that time into ACTIVELY trying to educate and inform people about how their rights are being trampled on, maybe we could make a difference. But it's so much easier to sit in front of a computer and whine and insult and complain, isn't it?
Saif
RogueTrooper
Second, I do not subscribe to the indoctrinations of the bible as it results in the same mentality on display from the ANC faithful...blind devotion without original thought but that is a debate for another day.
Third, thank you for pointing out my spelling error and you are correct when explaining the time vs edit ability/function of posters here. I too fall victim to the curse of the keyboard.
Fourth, I am not a product of an ANC (endorsed) education. I was educated long before the ANC got stuck in and destroyed what was a more than an adequate and internationally acceptable education system.
Fifth, as mentioned I was focussing on the issue at hand and demonstrating the short comings of the short-sighted policies the ANC likes to adopt. It was the respondents who turned the thread in a bun fight and got their proverbial knickers in a knot.
Sixth, I agree whole-heartedly with you comment about us needing to actively get involved in educating and informing people about how their rights and civil liberties are being 'trampled on' to put it mildly. If you have read any of my comments on other threads you might have picked it up but then again you are probably to busy to have noticed. I make an effort to try and put my observations across but quite often comes up against the notion that there are none so blind as those who will not see and cannot or will not objectively view the world around them and see what their elitist leaders are really up to. This however will not deter me or cause me to faulter in my pursuit of real democracy in a country that I love dearly and, despite what the ANC sheeple may believe, call my only home. I will continue to fight to make this a better place and if that makes some people unhappy or uncomfortable they can, to use a phrase from their beloved ANCYL leader (for now), EAT CAKE.
Lastly, I make no apologies nor do I seek forgiveness for my comments or viewpoints or opinions for that matter.
Mnbvcxz0
RogueTrooper
If I were to lieft a finger now I would surely kill you, so let me save you for another day."
Please could you clarify the point you are attempting to make here...or are you just making a threat?
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 574 days agoMnbvcxz0
Posted 574 days agoOTTOOTTO
shelatt
Mnbvcxz0
BobbyBob
Even ANC MPs must have a mind they can make up on principle issues that face the country. One day we are told the ANC is a broad church, many opinions , now its a najority opinion that counts.
Democracies the world over have MP's that will vote against the party where the matter is weighty enough.
NeoBlack
Posted 574 days agoNo party/ organisation can survive without discipline. I think the ANC should reign supreme against its ill-disciplined members, just like they did with Malema.
It is interesting that people who did not toe the party-line are non-black. One can only wonder if during national elections they also vote as individuals or as ANC members. I have always suspected that the ANC is inflitrated by people who do not push the party's agenda, but their own personal ends/ or even the ends of the opposition
Saif
Mnbvcxz0
BobbyBob
Once you belong to a party , you should still object to any matter that violates your principles. Once you are a member of a party , there may well be disagreement when it comes to voting, see how often that happens in other democracies. As we are often told, the ANC is a broad church with many views. And I think that's good. You dont seem to think so.
What you want is that MP's all follow their leader, do as they're told. Well that's not freedom , that's blind enslavement to a leader, a strong man, and that's very unhealthy in a democracy.
Saif
Posted 574 days agoTebogongwana2010
Posted 573 days agoNext in the firing line is anyone who dares compare the dancing queen to previous ANC presidents. Apparently is a big crime in the ANC. Haak Vrystaat, the chickens are coming home to roost. Hold on tight this is just
Tebogongwana2010
Posted 573 days agoMnbvcxz0
Posted 573 days agoBobbyBob
It would all not matter so much, if the issue of corruption was not debilitating to the country . It will ruin us.
Mnbvcxz0
BobbyBob
But since you ask, if it came to a shouting match I would not like that, but if it came to a vote , it would not matter if they voted differently. I would know that they both have my best interests at heart even though they see that differently.
That is not the case here, I do not believe that the ANC has the country's interests at heart in this matter. They cajole compliance , the bill is to the detriment of the country for the benefit of the few. f you had principles you to might vote against the bill.
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 573 days agoAnd why not?, the rest of miserable Africa is fighting for decades to get rid of the cancer that contaminates the inhabitants from birth seemingly, and just to end one thief's kingdom to start the next one, while the rest of flies are born in poverty and fecal matter and die equally like flies. And generation after generation of morons still ask why Africa is constantly colonised and raped....
This large organized crime syndicate known as ANC is dealing with trillions of money, just like the drug-trafficking business. The poor ethics and moral principles ("european" standards, that is) of its constituent element will never give up such a booty without fight......Hence they try to tighten their grip on the open arks and they NEED URGENTLY an absolute control on the media, as it happens so far.......Now the Judiciary with a "yes,Boss" head, they are on the relentless attack:
"the Cabinet says the decisions by the Constitutional Court will be "assessed" as part of a broader review of 'transformation' in South Africa's judicial system. says "Give-me-money" Jimmy Manyi has announced (Mail&Guardian)....
.."The African National Congress has placed the relocation of Parliament to Pretoria squarely back on the table. "(M&G)......
So, these two poor flies represented by Turok and Borman, flying over the immense cow-dun.g cake will be wiped out by a single tail stroke easily. What is their worry?..They knew exactly the kind of mafia elements they were going to associate with, so they should not be surprised......and on top, they are not " darkies"......And, that particular characteristic of their skin out of tune with the surrounding darkness, also singles them out for their "indiscipline" ........And for the "ethereal" moron lines above who is so happy "he/she can think", democracy does not mean one must follow and do where and what the rest of monkeys do.....The TENETS of democracy can be summarized:
- Majority rule, BUT NO TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY:" While there is rule by the majority, the rights of every one must be clearly spelt out and systematically protected. The majority cannot do whatever it wants"
-Freedom of expression, speech and the press.
-Freedom of religion and belief.
-The right to be treated equally under the law.
-Rights of minority and disadvantaged groups.
-A Constitution which is respected and upheld.
-Separation of powers.
-An independent Judiciary.
-An institutional system of checks and balances.
...All that is required, and I am sure the illuminati of the syndicate are working on it, is an armed body to deal effectively with dissidents: Army (at the moment it seems full of useless material) Police (there are still obstacles in spite of Generalissimos, that can spoil the controlling) or armed militias (the Purple Moron was promising, but his own greed finished him up).............
Mnbvcxz0
SuiGeneris
''''''''''''''But then who am I to knock in some sense into a skull that has been around for years and has absorbed beliefs it cares not to prove.''''''''''''''''
=========================================
Perhaps it would be very good idea if you start by knocking some sense into your own indoctrinated and delusional head.
It is evident from your posts that you believe that the way you see things is the right way and the only way and that all the rest is just balderdash !
Mnbvcxz0
staren
correct if I'm wrong, but doesn't insulting one person in one post:
"But then who am I to knock in some sense into a skull that has been around for years and has absorbed beliefs it cares not to prove."
and then criticising another poster for insulting you:
"but they did not tie your hands to the computer to write stuff that expose your lack of clear thinking."
strike you as just a tad HYPOCRITICAL??
Probably not...
SuiGeneris
Another post made by you making it even more evident and once again confirming what I suspected all along.....You have a huge perception problem !
JeanCampbell_Collen
Posted 573 days agoFeelgood
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 573 days ago"Illuminati" also implies a group of highly educated, intelligent and cultured people, not a horde of thieves with such pretensions....(unless they are highly intelligent and educated and cultured thieves)........
...It is such a disgrace (for the parents) to have a child born dumb, deaf and blind......but it is infinitely worse to choose to be one, be smiley and proud of it and to deride the ones who chose not to........They are hardly worth of "respect"..................
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 573 days ago....................................................
""""To prevent the revolution from losing steam, Malema urged a full hall in the Ehlanzeni District Municipality building to have as many babies as possible.
“Having babies is a revolutionary thing. You must reproduce! If you shame a black man about his large family, you should immediately change your attitude.”"""""""City Press