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Thu Jun 20 13:45:59 SAST 2013

Angry ANC MPs want Turok's head

CAIPHUS KGOSANA | 24 November, 2011 00:56
Gloria Borman will now have to explain to her ANC colleagues why she abstained when the Protection of State Information Bill was put to the vote in the National Assembly on Tuesday Picture: ESA ALEXANDER

Angry ANC MPs are mounting pressure on the party to take strong action against veteran MP Ben Turok for breaking ranks in the vote on the Protection of State Information Bill.

The ANC rammed through the controversial bill with 229 votes against the combined opposition's 107.

Turok walked out of the National Assembly as the bill was about to be put to the vote on Tuesday.

Fellow ANC MP Gloria Borman abstained.

The Times has learned that a number of ANC MPs have approached the party's chief whip, Mathole Motshekga, to express their strong objections to what they regard as gross ill-discipline by the two MPs.

"It shows ill-discipline and in whatever form it will always remain ill-discipline," said a senior MP who asked not to be named. "We have had four caucus meetings and not even once did Turok and Borman raise any issues with the bill."

Another MP, who also asked not to be identified, said he was angered by Turok's assertion, on SAfm radio, that ruling party MPs had been given a wrong version of the bill to vote on.

"Who the hell does he think he is? He is implying that we are just idiots who vote without reading. It is condescending and insulting."

ANC MPs are now demanding that a special caucus meeting be held today to give them the opportunity to air their views.

ANC caucus spokesman Moloto Mothapo would not confirm that the party was considering disciplinary action against the two MPs, but said a statement would be issued today.

"For now, this matter remains an internal party matter. When we are ready, we will pronounce on it," he said.

ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu gave the clearest indication that the ruling party was disposed to take strong action against the two.

"The conduct of comrades like Ben Turok, in raising their objections by abstaining and using the media smacks of ill-discipline and will be handled internally by the ANC," Mthembu said.

Turok could not be reached for comment yesterday.

Borman told The Times that she abstained because she had reservations about the effect the bill would have on efforts to expose corruption.

"For me, it seems as if there are obstacles being placed . [it] just puts obstacles in the way. We need to be able to make it easier for people to expose corruption," she said.

Borman, who is in her first term as an ANC MP after defecting from the DA, said she represented a large church-based constituency concerned about the effects of corruption. She said she was in favour of a public interest clause being inserted into the bill as a defence for those exposing wrongdoing by rogue state officials.

"A public interest clause will certainly assist. I am not a legal person and I sought some counsel on it. In my discussions, the accountability side [seemed to be] lacking and there are some contradictions. It would seem a clause like that would definitely help," she said.

With tensions about the passing of the contentious legislation - which criminalises the possession and publication of classified state information - reaching boiling point, Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe has suggested that the ruling party is still trying to find an amicable solution to the dispute with opponents of the bill.

"I think it is important for us to also come back to this issue of the secrecy bill, that all of a sudden dark chambers are being created and so on.

"From my own background as a negotiator, when there is agreement on 90% or whatever, you separate the issues which keep the parties apart and that's what you deal with . you focus on that until you find a meeting point.

"I don't understand why people just dig into their trenches on a matter like that one."

He was replying to questions put to him in the National Assembly yesterday.

The bill has now been referred to the National Council of Provinces for further discussion. If that house passes it, it will be left to President Jacob Zuma to sign it before it becomes law.

Those who object to the bill being passed in its current form are now hoping Zuma will refer it back to parliament or for screening by the Constitutional Court to determine its legality before he signs it.

DA parliamentary leader Lindiwe Mazibuko will hold a press conference today, at which she will be joined by party leader Helen Zille, to outline the DA's plans for stopping the bill becoming law.

The Council for the Advancement of the South African Constitution added its voice to those condemning the bill.

The council urged Zuma to refer the draft law to the Constitutional Court for ratification if the National Council of Provinces passes it without change.

"This is an important piece of legislation that is necessary to protect legitimate state secrets and to protect the sovereign integrity of our nation.

"It should not contain elements that undermine the constitutional rights of ordinary people," it said.

On Tuesday, passionate pleas from media organisations, unions, civil society and other interest groups opposed to the proposed law fell on deaf ears.

ANC MPs voted to approve it in the National Assembly.

SHARE YOUR OPINION

If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.

I984

Posted 574 days ago
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"He is implying that we are just idiots who vote without reading. It is condescending and insulting."

LOL! Is this a projection, or guilty (sub)consciences speaking?

Now that the omerta has been signed - let the witch-hunt begin.
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disillusionedstill

Posted 574 days ago
If Prof Turok is correct, there is no need to imply.
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Kambula

Posted 574 days ago
Nah, he's just an idiot, we don't have to look for ulterior motives!!
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HughRobinson

Posted 573 days ago
Reading between the lines this smacks more of a race and freedom of choice issue than discipline.

A disciplined cadre would have without doubt voted and not reading the bill. Is that not the arguement?
Those that read the bill were against it. The ANC cannot have it both ways. You cannot accuse one of ill discipline, pretent to have read the bill, nodded you head sagely then voted in support. Yours as a disciplined cadre is to agree, not to read or think.

What then was the reason for the specific instruction.

BornintheRSA

Posted 574 days ago
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Seems the ANC does not believe in democracy nor diversity of opinions. There are two (possibly three) confirmed members who do not support the bill. What would the support be if the ANC did an internal secret ballot amongst its members for this bill?

PRADO

Posted 574 days ago
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So some of the sheeple can think for themselves. Very dangerous to the ANC. Imagine if more start to think for themselves ?
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BobbyBob

Posted 574 days ago
Imagine... but , no fear of that it's the ANC after all. That once idealistic organisation that is now mired in corruption and infighting.
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AMS-Dammer

Posted 574 days ago
Prado.... should they start "THINKING" for themselves... they will get "INJURED"

Ever seen an ANC member think for themselves?

Thats like FAIRY TALE STUFF!

"You will DO AS I SAY..... NOT what I DO...."!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!

Sheeple will never change.....

disillusionedstill

Posted 574 days ago
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Prof Turok said on Capetalk that the Bill voted on was different to the Bill debated.

If he is correct, it raises the issue of whether Members actually know what is going on.

An aside is that both Prof Turok and the IFP's Mr Ambrosini, have made the DA spokespeople sound like amateurs.


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I984

Posted 574 days ago
"Prof Turok said on Capetalk that the Bill voted on was different to the Bill debated. "

Please elaborate ?!???
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BobbyBob

Posted 574 days ago
If that's true , the bill's approval can be overturned.
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kirstygall

Posted 573 days ago
I heard the interview on 702/Capetalk and Prof Trurock had 3 main objections to the bill, namely:
1. The bill he had been given to read the night before the vote was a version dated 2010
2. There were contradictory clauses in the bill, he gave the example of a section that confirmed everyones right to freedom of speech and then was contradicted by a clause that said that any head of a state organ could classify something as classified.
3. The lack of a public interest clause and stiff sentences for the mere possesion or passing on of classified information.

He was concerned about people like himself inadvertantly giving out classified information, he said that he meets with many different diplomats on a daily basis as part of his job and is often asked his opinion on certain issues and he asked the rhetorical question, what if he inadvertantly tells a foreign dignitory something that has been classified and he is unaware of the fact that it was classified.

Now the above, if true, raises certain worrying issues:

1. How are the MP's supposed to vote on a bill when they were given it the day before the vote. I would imagine this isn't sufficient time to properly read and understand it, especially if you are not a lawyer. If I send my lawyer a simple business contract it takes him 3-4 days to review it.

2. If they were indeed provided with an old version of the bill, why was Prof Trurock the only person to notice that he was given the wrong version. Did no-one else read it? Why didn't the opposition raise the fact that they were voting on an old version of the bill as a reason to postpone the vote? Either they also didn't bother to read it and all the righteous indignation is political game playing or they're incompetent.

And moving on, doesn't it strike anyone as strange that this bill has been plodding along in reviews and is suddenly pushed through parliament just as Zuma opens and inquiry into the arms deal? An to top off matters, he's installed his buddy Mogoeng, Mogoeng as head of the Concourt so even if it does go to the Concourt what are the chances of Mogeong overturning it?

Be afraid, be very afraid!
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disillusionedstill

Posted 573 days ago
Prof Turok also named three departments allowed to classify info'.

Bottom line - which Bill was on the table?

Liberal-Soul

Posted 574 days ago
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I take my hat off (literally) to Prof Turok and Ms Borman.

You guys are truelly people of substance and principal.
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samsam

Posted 574 days ago
unfortunately these are new members of the anc who still need an orientation with anc

SuiGeneris

Posted 574 days ago
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''''''''''''''It shows ill-discipline and in whatever form it will always remain ill-discipline''''''''''''

================================================

And what about the 34 MP's who were absent although they were notified that their presence was compulsory !!!???

Pathetic, I would say !
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Feelgood

Posted 574 days ago
In a democracy the members of parliament should vote the way they think is best for the country and not the party. In the US members of one party might vote against a bill sponsered by their party and it's no big deal. There shouldn't be a night of long knives that went on in Germany under Hitler. The people should be taught how a democratic society is supposed to function.

muk1

Posted 574 days ago
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Yesterday I had the privilage of listening to Prof. J Jansen. He said what was scary is that individuals (i.e. ANC MPs) thoughts and ideas are being suppressed by being foced to vote in a certain manner. Is this not how the NATS, Mugabe and others operated? Basically the ANC is like a high school bully that forces weak pupils to toe the line. Shame on the ANC.
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SMAB

Posted 574 days ago
Why do people become members of a party like this where you cease to have an opinion. You get punished if you dare go against what the fools in charge want. What this confirms is that we are truly in trouble as a country. Government is filled with "yes men and women". What is quite extraordinary is that they really do not see anything wrong with ostracizing, publicly for that matter, someone for having an independent thought.

ThePurplePimp

Posted 574 days ago
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The only 2 people that are not corrupt in the whole ANC?
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BobbyBob

Posted 574 days ago
I am sure there are others. I cannot believe that the ideals the ANC fought for can so quickly be corrupted with everyone supporting that. They must be biding their time for the right opportunity to fight back.
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samsam

Posted 574 days ago
unfortunately these two are still new in the anc , still need thorough orientation and capacity building within the movement
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Commissar_Sage_Maverick

Posted 574 days ago
@samsam
Ben Turok is a SACP member who's also been a member of the ANC since the 60's.
These are the SACP Jews who joined the ANC just to confuse it and prevent us from achieving total liberation for the masses.

A.N.D

Posted 574 days ago
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it puzzles the mind about the ANC's version of democracy, how can you discipline an individual who excesises his/her right to object to any proposed legislation, i can tell you that even inside companies, certain directors will disagree on a matter even though they represent the same company and one may choose not to vote on a matter, that does not mean decent or ill-discipline, the ANC should accept the choses made by the two MP's
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BobbyBob

Posted 574 days ago
Yes but imagine, if they get away with this one, they may be emboldened and also encourage others to follow suit at the next unconstitutional vote.

SuiGeneris

Posted 574 days ago
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''''''''''how can you discipline an individual who excesises his/her right to object to any proposed legislation,''''''''''

===================================================

A clear indication that they are not capable exercise their own minds.....

If Sipho jumps off the cliff, I will follow !

Tronn

Posted 574 days ago
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Democratic South Africa?? Ha ha ha ha ha Communist South Africa is more like it.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 574 days ago
Exactly !

zuma was trained by the communists, [MK] and obviously still think and believe that communism is the answer, covered with a fragile and thin layer of democracy.
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
SuiGeneris, what is "trained by the SACP [MK]"? Those are two different organisations with 2 different ideologies and not one as you are desperately trying to imply. Problem with most of you here seem to think you know more about the ANC and its partners than the ANC themselves but you oakes are just spewing bile......pathetic!!

inkunzi

Posted 574 days ago
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"We have had four caucus meetings and not even once did Turok and Borman raise any issues with the bill."
==================
It worries me how people that claim to be smart and educated always just shoot from the hip without educating themselves on the matter first. Parliament doesn't work like when we vote in the general elections. There are caucuses amongst all the MP's and a vote/a position is taken and recorded by the chief whip. Once the party agrees that this is our position then voting is just a mere confirmation of the party's position.
The reason why an MP can't vote based on their own thought is because they are appointed by the party into parliament. In other words, these MP's are because of the ANC. So that means they are the voice of the party in parly, not their own. Otherwise they would have been standing as independent candidates in the general elections, and not ride on the ANC card.

Now, in this case, after 4 caucuses, once an MP votes differently from the resolution of the caucus they are in breach of party processes. Once they go to the media they are ill-disciplined.
This is simple. Those of us that are in corporate finance know that once our principals say for example that this is how the deal should be structured to benefit the company and create value for stock holders, no one of the M&A team can divert from that. if the counter party has a different proposal and they are firm on their position, we rather go back to the office and come up with a new proposal.

People like to act stupid and criticise just because they can. Had anyone from the DA voted in favour of the bill they would have been fired so why should the ANC act differently. I say they betrayed their organisation they must be punished. I'm not an ANC MP fyi, I'm just not a sheep that goes with any argument even if it doesn't hold water but just because it's against the ANC. But as usual, go ahead and accuse me of being an ANC tenderpreneur.

BobbyBob

Posted 574 days ago
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She and a few others stand bravely against the emerging kleptocracy. That is what is emerging, a secret kleptocracy.

I984

Posted 574 days ago
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"We have had four caucus meetings and not even once did Turok and Borman raise any issues with the bill."
==================

And two lone voices would have changed things how exactly?
Not everyone is willing to bang their heads against the brick wall until they bleed.
Sometimes the only possible option left is just to walk away. As evident.
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inkunzi

Posted 574 days ago
I984,
"Sometimes the only possible option left is just to walk away. As evident."

You took the words out of my mouth. Instead of blaming the corrupt ANC, why don't you hold these two accountable for their lack of sticking to their convictions. This bill was discussed since 2008 and only a day after the final vote these three musketeers realise it's not good. They should have joined another party and left the ANC since as you put it, they can't make any change in the ANC. They are weak politicians, Lekota walked away and left gravy to starve in the dessert aka cope. I salute him for that.
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I984

Posted 574 days ago
"why don't you hold these two accountable for their lack of sticking to their convictions"

I think you must have missed the brick-wall part of my comment.
They walked away precisely because in that situation they had no other option left, and because they chose to stick to their convictions, and to remain faithful to their conscience and ability to tell right from wrong.

There is nothing to hold them accountable for.
For this I would never hold them accountable for.

I would applaud them.
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inkunzi

Posted 574 days ago
I984,
Ok, I just read my post again and realised how poor my command of the borrowed English language is. Let me rephrase: Principled people walk away from organisations that don't have same values ans they. These two should have resigned from the ANC because it's a lie that they voted on a bill they had never seen before.
Even I knew what parliament was to vote on so these MP's knew exactly that the ANC wasn't interested in the public interest clause and they wanted to vote for the bill in it's current form (after 120 amendments). Either these two are part of those MP's that nap during caucus or they are liars. I think they are both. Lazy hypocrites that want to be famous post facto.

Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
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She is a DA urgent sent to saw devisions in our beloved ANC, kick her out please.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
Bwahahahahahaha....English, much? And the irony here is that you are probably a product of an ANC endorsed education.
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
Rogue, Least you forget, some of us here have English as a fourth or fifth language and whether we spell correctly or not is neither here nor there......that shows your "Superiority Complex" up round about now. Infact, I know Afrikaaners who can neither spell nor speak the dilect (which mind you derives its origins from borrowing words and meanings from other languages). So, please grow up!!! Somehow, I think it is the only language you know......besides the language of opposition, ofcourse.
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
Oh my here is another one concerned about my lingo, if it was Afrikaans (fake language) I would mind but since it a universal language spoken in 100 different ways in one continent I don’t. I like English because of this one line, “Mind your own business”.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
@ Razzo and Ultimatum...noonoo like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not. It is however, the international language of business and communication so I would urge you to verse yourselves well in it. It wasn't so much how or what was said but the irony of the situation i.e. the tragic state of the education system in SA and this was just one example of it...not to worry though because it clearly sailed over you head much like the concept of responsible, accountable and transparent governance does your beloved party.

@ Ultimatum...why would you consider Afrikaans a 'false' language pray tell?

@ Razzo...for the record I happen to speak several language including one ethnic SA language but I do not believe that that has bearing on this topic.
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
“sailed over you head much”
“speak several language including”

Dont you like to revise the above?
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
Whilst you are at it have a look at this one as well
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"

Or just repeat the whole paragraph it doesnt make sense. LMAO

The arrival of Mix it and Face book (Social networks) was the cause of words swap @$$ wipe.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
@ Ultimatum...petty and picky...typical. Laughable and pathetic.

“sailed over you head much” -try reading it in context and try...if you can to complete the sentence, perhaps you'll then understand
“speak several language including” - typo...it happens

Dont you like to revise the above?- surely you mean..."Would you like to revise the above?" oh and by the way it's don't not dont

Anyway this is all off topic...
Interestingly you didn't answer my question re: Afrikaans being a 'false' language...
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
“sailed over you head much”
sailed over your head much
“Speak several language including”
Speak several languages including
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"
like I give a sh!t whether it's your 18th language or not

You surely are not a man enough to accept your mistakes.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
@ Ulimatum...you wrote "Whilst you are at it have a look at this one as well
"like I give a sh!t whether it's you 18th language or not"

Or just repeat the whole paragraph it doesnt make sense. LMAO

The arrival of Mix it and Face book (Social networks) was the cause of words swap @$$ wipe."

It makes perfect sense if you read correctly and realise that it should have read youR...typo. I am not going to be dragged into your purile little world and argue semantics you little troll. Do us a favour and elevate your end of the debate to at least 14 or 15 years of age or GTFO. Also, read your last sentence because that does not make any sense even if I try to correct the grammar and/or punctuation.
Now grow up because the grown up are talking here princess!
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
Ok, now based on your question,

Afrikaans is a fake language because it is fabricated using english material.
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
Now @$$ wipe go back to your first comment and see who deviated from the "topic".

I wanted to show you that just as you are pointtng at me some of your fingers are pointing at you aswell, moeeer.LMAO
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
This Rogue comes here as the bastion of the English Language and yet he himself needs a lesson or two in it........I am reminded of "People throwing stones whilst living in glass houses".......hahahahahahha *I am rolling on the floor, LMAO*...kinda like "the kettle calling the pot black" really. Ultimatum, lets not waste our time with this petty person.
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Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
@ Razzo

Sure, let carry on with our mandate of defending the truth.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
As mentioned...the irony I alluded to clearly sailed over youR head but I cannot bear to go down that road AGAIN...I would rather run into a wall...repeatedly!
You said that Afrikaans is a false language, in your words "Afrikaans is a fake language because it is fabricated using english material"...do you know the origins of the English language and how it is made up of several languages? Obviously not but then, as I mentioned, you are a product of the ANC endorsed education system so you wouldn't.

@ Razzo...if it makes you feel better to consider me in that light then so be it. At least I have independent and original thought and do not just repeat the ANC mantra and tow the party line every time I post on this forum.

@Ultimatum and Razzo...as mentioned you clearly missed my point re: irony in my 1st post so I end the thread here. Please do not display you lack of EQ by hitting back with cute little "heat in the kitchen"...or..."tail between legs"...or...similar school yard quotes to try and show me up as I have wasted enough time with you 2 sheeple

Commissar_Sage_Maverick

Posted 574 days ago
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Remove that DA mole...as for Ben Turok who's been an ANC member since the 60's the time will come when we expose you.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
Eish...you ANC lot are a loyal bunch hey...
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SuiGeneris

Posted 574 days ago
''Bloody agent'' Hmmm ???
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BobbyBob

Posted 573 days ago
Commissar, what do you call someone who does exactly what you want without questioning for money? You want all Mp's like that?

MisterWendal

Posted 574 days ago
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Those ANC members who have allowed their individual principles to be compromised by heeding the decidedly undemocratic ANC order to vote for the Secrecy Bill in this format, should hang their heads in shame!
They have assisted in undoing the fight against injustice which was so handsomely accomplished by the mass democratic movement in the '80's (of which almost all of them were part of)!

The_Afrikan

Posted 574 days ago
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without arguing the merits of the bill...Prof Turok must do the honourable thing and resign....one cant be party to things he disagrees with.

MarcCaldwell

Posted 574 days ago
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We are so used to thinking of our democracy as "17 years"; and to use that idea to represent either a "young" democracy (a teenager of "only 17 years"), or to use it more negatively ("we've gone from clogs to clogs in one generation").
During the last election it occurred to me that we were at a turning point. I thought it signalled the rise of the DA and decline of the ANC. But that is too simplistic. But the ANC's shameful passing of the Secrecy Bill against massive public resistance does confirm my original suspicions that we have left one era of democracy and entered an era of 'Black' Fascism (though it grates me to combine those 2 words).
Consider the following timeline:

1943 + 17 years = 1960 - Emergence of Afrikaner nationalism, including NAT election, SA Republic.
1960 + 17 years = 1976 - Consolidation of apartheid
1976 + 17 years = 1993/1994 - Resistance to apartheid, democratic election
1994 + 17 years = 2011 - Consolidation of democracy
2011 + 17 years = 2028 - Return of suppression, Decline of ANC, to end of the ANC

Phase 1: Nats against legacy of British colonialism
Phase 2: NAT rule; Apartheid
Phase 3: Democrats against apartheid and its legacies
Phase 4: ANC rule; democracy
Phase 5: Democrats against 'Black' Fascism
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
MarcCaldwell, just a question.....how massive "massive public resistance". What numeric value can you attach to your assertions in order to legitimise your claim????
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
What if i were to tell you that ANC branches adopted the Bill and stand by the ANC on it......and in number terms, we all know that this is "massive".........Interesting timelines by the way.....very interesting indeed. dont know much about the last one though but definately food for thought.
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ooooooooo

Posted 574 days ago
Razzo

And next year the majority will be even greater as a result of all the babies born seventeen years ago as a result of the ANC grants system. They will be eighteen and because of the ANC's failed education system (changed three times during this period) they will be mostly uneducated and vote for the ANC. But where are they going to get jobs? Who will feed them?
They will one day turn on the ANC and that is the day I am looking forward to.
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
Frik.....I guess only time will tell if the ANC can really keep the fires burning. The ANC can be its own worst enemy at times. We certainly hope it can lead us into the next 100 years of rule. The organisation itselfis not corrupt but some individuals in it. We just need to get rid of those bad elements and then replace them with hardworking honest and decent leaders and individual.......that goes for any organisation for that matter; be it sport, business or political.
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ooooooooo

Posted 574 days ago
Razzo

I always held your convictions in this regard but after the appointment of Jacob Zuma as President I have lost confidence in the ANC. They are too fragmented to govern effectively. My view is that it will get worse before it gets better and although I believe there are many good leaders in the ANC they will never be allowed to come forward. They do not even allow members to differ on issues as is clear from the witch hunt currently under way because some members did not vote for the secrecy bill.

Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
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Professor Turok and that Boreman chickie must be hauled to the DC for bringing the party into disrepute.....you join the ANC out of your free will, you get placed into Parliament by it to advance its agenda. If you have strong feelings against its agenda, get out of parliament or stand as an independant candidate. Its actually appauling what they have done. They must go!!!!!!!
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
I disagree...I firmly believe that the ANC is now heading down the wrong road and there is a hairpin turn coming up shortly which is/will lead SA towards the place the ANC fought so hard to head away from. I also believe that the change and resistance to that must happen from within the party because they are merely dismissing the will of the people and closing ranks to consolidate power...in other words the ANC is a rudderless ship and heading in the wrong direction and if some within the party can see that it is their duty to cause a reset in direction. At the current rate the ANC of old is already gone and the ANC of the future is doomed to destruction...but they will not allow that and we will decend into conflict...perhaps even civil conflict.
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Saif

Posted 574 days ago
Razzo, I truly second your view in this regard and adding to that: Prof Turok has always been a perpetrator of mischievous hidden agendas if one may recall and I will fully support the ANC's DC if these 2 (Prof .Turok & Granma) get what they deserve.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 574 days ago
@ saif...is that your 2c worth? Thanks for your insight....but you would do well to heed your own advise and as mentioned to your comrades Razzo and Ulimatum...try an original thought for a change you might find it refreshing and perhaps even inspiring but then again it would seem that the ANC indoctrination does not permit free thought hence this article and the ANC sheeple comments.
Oh well...perhaps in another time hey
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Saif

Posted 574 days ago
Rouge Trooper

My 2c insight deviates to most of your propagated comments that might lead this lovely South African ANC runned Govnt to the same situation Europe has fallen into @ the moment, baring the fact that the same situation is still affecting us although we decided to take a backseat.....are you still perhaps considering relocating to Europe since the bill has been voted against your fellow leaders or you are settled down there in mini Europe (Cape Town)?
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RogueTrooper

Posted 573 days ago
@ Saif..."My 2c insight deviates to most of your propagated comments that might lead this lovely South African ANC runned Govnt to the same situation Europe has fallen into @ the moment, baring the fact that the same situation is still affecting us although we decided to take a backseat.....are you still perhaps considering relocating to Europe since the bill has been voted against your fellow leaders or you are settled down there in mini Europe (Cape Town)?"
What you refer to regarding SA vs Europe is disingenuous are so far off the topic it deserves no retort. Try sticking to the topic at hand as you have chastised me for not doing.
You stated..."are you still perhaps considering relocating to Europe since the bill has been voted against your fellow leaders or you are settled down there in mini Europe (Cape Town)?"
What makes you think that I had any intentions of leaving my country and home South Africa? Are you prone to making assumptions or do you habitually make stuff up...I'll assume the latter is correct.
Lastly, this vote was not against my leaders...this vote was against our civil liberties (yours included) but as I said in my response to LouLou I do not expect you to see that as you cannot or will not take your nose out of the book of ANC mantras. You will find out the extent of the abuse of power this bill promotes the hard way...by the loss of your future unless you start to see the word for the trees and fight back!
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RogueTrooper

Posted 573 days ago
ermmm...woOd (not word) for the trees...
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Saif

Posted 573 days ago

Rogue...Rogue...Rouge, I some times wonder while going through your defence statements whether you have some hidden agenda to reveal or not your loyal leaders who are pretending to be fighting for your "civil liberties" excluding my own through the media, do you honestly think in your rightful sober mind that any individual that shares the same views I have regarding the implementation of this bill would fall for their (oppositions) mandate in drowing this democracy through media by endangering the safety of our fellow brothers and sisters for their own benefit into power .....just sober up Trooper Boy

As for you relocating to Europe it was an option Im suggesting because you will be getting more of these robust debates on this blogg quiet often.....dont be offended we are a rainbow nation...remember....???
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ThePurplePimp

Posted 573 days ago
Razzo "If you have strong feelings against its agenda, get out of parliament" That doesn't do much good if you REALLY have strong feelings. She made a STRONG impact to her strong feelings. She just has more Ball* than all the other ANC members. She actioned what many other ANC members were thinking but were to cowardly to act on.
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Saif

Posted 573 days ago
ThePurplePimp

I don't think the Granma (Borman)/DA mole was deployed by your masters, because we just worried on whos mandate is she on, yours/ANC.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 573 days ago
@ Saif...You said..."Rogue...Rogue...Rouge, I some times wonder while going through your defence statements whether you have some hidden agenda to reveal or not your loyal leaders who are pretending to be fighting for your "civil liberties" excluding my own through the media, do you honestly think in your rightful sober mind that any individual that shares the same views I have regarding the implementation of this bill would fall for their (oppositions) mandate in drowing this democracy through media by endangering the safety of our fellow brothers and sisters for their own benefit into power .....just sober up Trooper Boy

As for you relocating to Europe it was an option Im suggesting because you will be getting more of these robust debates on this blogg quiet often.....dont be offended we are a rainbow nation...remember....???"

The first part of your post is hard to understand but I think the gist of it is something along the lines of you and your ilk will not and could not fall for the argument by opposition to this bill that it is detrimental to the freedom that we enjoy today...yes? My response...I don't expect you too...you have displayed your clear disdain (or understanding) of resonable logic and most certainly have a blind loyalty to the ANC and I fear that this may lead to a Waco-like ending.
Regarding the 'robust debate on this blogg (forum)'...bring it, that is after all why I am here after an active participant. I will not shy away...in fact after LouLou's post I feel invigorated to re-educate you and your soulless ilk.

Alexio

Posted 574 days ago
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The ANC should be tactical enough to present its self as a democratic party that accommodates various views, but at the end of the day it’s the majority decision that carries the day. Do they expect all their MP’s to sing the same song every time. People do not vote for the ANC because they agree with all its policies, but the majority. When a few discerning voices prop up among its ranks, it should not upset them, given their huge majority. ANC should work up to democratic principles and allow discerns.
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Razzo

Posted 574 days ago
I hear what you are saying Alexio and as noble as it is and sounds, it is not practical in parliament......when the bill was first discussed, this is the time for debate, democracy and differing views however when in parliament, you cant go against your organisation in front of opposition. That is tantamount to rebelling against your party.....Rather quit parliament and remain an ordinary member. Parliament is there to pass legislation and advance party political lines and not your individual interests.

When the Bill was up for scrutiny and debate, this was the time and place for democracy and discerning views, but once the majority has spoken then you soldier on and respect the parties line. If not, You are free to vacate your seat because clearly it is not what you as an individual wants.........thats democracy at work!!
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cANCerSurvivor

Posted 574 days ago
Razzo, youre talking about politics, NOT democracy. Yes, there's a big difference...
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Ron_x

Posted 573 days ago
@Razzo

Apologies if this point has already been covered. By your logic the parliamentary procedure is simply a case of conducting internal caucus meetings, deciding on what the 'party line' is and then repeating the party line again in parliament. If that was truly the way the system was to be conducted - then why include the redundant parliament step. Why not send one MP with 180 voting slips all saying the same thing. My understanding of democracy and its mechanisms is clearly very much out of touch with reality. Here I believed caucus votes would take place to decide whether a particular Bill or Amendment should be put through to parliament, it is then still up to each MP to decide on their particular viewpoints to come to their own voting decision. If procedures were as you explained, can you not see how the system would fail? 50mn people effectively vote in 300 MP's, but you only need a majority vote to put a vote through - so we down to 151 MP's. All of those MP's will come from one party which only needed a majority vote to decide to push the vote through in the first instance - so now we down to 76 MP's. Those 76 MP's were directed by their cabinet of 12? who in turn were directed by JZ himself. If MP's are not allowed to make their own decisions then what exactly is the point of parliament? Does it not become an exercise in futility if all they are doing is repeating a majority decision from a progressively smaller voting pool. Eventually the destiny of 50mn people becomes reliant on one single decision by one individual.

Apologies again if this has already been covered - I acknowledge I am picking up this thread quite late in the game. Apologies also if my assumptions of number of MP's is incorrect. That particular Uni course was a long time ago.

Ultimatum-1

Posted 574 days ago
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But Since they didnt vote I think they should be forgiven (on conditions), If they had voted against than I would reiterate that they be kicked out.

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 574 days ago
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If the ANC has 264 seats, had 229 votes and had one person abstaining - then there were 34 party members who didn't vote.

Why pick on only this one?
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Saif

Posted 574 days ago
The other members were deployed else where out of the country some around SA e.g : Sports Minister Hon. Fikile Mbalula had to attend the Sports Indaba remember?

MsLee

Posted 574 days ago
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The time of the long knives has begun ...

Ozgood

Posted 574 days ago
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(1) Why pick on Prof Turok?

(2) Who are the ANC MPs who want Turok's head? All of them? Surely they cannot all be unthinking mindless sheep.

(3) Did the absent ANC MP's have to bring in medical certificates

(4) I do believe that some of these part hacks would not find work outside parliament easily

Baas Frik

And next year the majority will be even greater as a result of all the babies born seventeen years ago as a result of the ANC grants system. They will be eighteen and because of the ANC's failed education system (changed three times during this period) they will be mostly uneducated and vote for the ANC. But where are they going to get jobs? Who will feed them?
They will one day turn on the ANC and that is the day I am looking forward to.

There is much logic in what you write
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 574 days ago
So you think African girls are just baby pumps. Your analysis really says you think very little of Africans in general Baas Frik . You are a danger to yourself.
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LouLou

Posted 574 days ago
What I fail to understand (and someone may have asked / answered this in another post) is why there is so much talk about democracy and the democratic process winning in the approval of the bill, yet there are 2 people being singled out for censure because they did not vote as the ANC decreed. Surely if we are supposed to have a democracy the democratic process doesn't end at voting for the political party of your choice? Surely there must be democratic principles promoted and upheld within the party ranks as well? If these principles and practices are absent from the governing party then there is no way that this country can claim to have a smidgeon of democracy in any of it's processes.

I am a DA supporter but there are a lot of things that they do/promote that i am not in 100% agreement with. I reserve the right to show my dissent by not agreeing to any policy or whatever that I don't agree with. It does not mean that I am not a loyal party supporter - it just means that I have differing views from the leadership in this particular instance.

In a democracy, I have (or am at least supposed to have) the right to exercise my vote as I wish. The singling out of these 2 is yet another indication of the division within the ANC ranks and the desperation shown by it's leadership to show some sort of harmony and unity.

LouLou

Posted 574 days ago
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Rogue Trooper,

Instead of focusing on people's lack of English skills I suggest that you admire them for attempting to do so when the majority of South Africans of hues other than black cannot even speak a single sensible sentence in another language.

And the Bible states that you should take the splinter out of your own eye before attempting to remove the log from your brother's. The word you used in a previous post "purile" is actuallu spelt "puerile" and if English is your fist language then I would also suggest that you are a product of an ANC education.

So many people, when typing their comments, are in a hurry and often don't have time to check their grammar and spelling before hitting the submit button. Why not focus on the issue at hand which is of more importance to this country than people's skills in language?

This country is going to hell in a handbasket and we spend time aon such pettiness? If we (and I include myself here) actually took the time we spent griping on sites such as these about things that we find unacceptable and channelled that time into ACTIVELY trying to educate and inform people about how their rights are being trampled on, maybe we could make a difference. But it's so much easier to sit in front of a computer and whine and insult and complain, isn't it?
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Saif

Posted 574 days ago
Well said!!
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RogueTrooper

Posted 573 days ago
First, I was not focussing on the lack of English skills on display, it was merely part a another point I was making (which I pointed out again later but that too seems to have been missed) but you can see the banter any which way you like.
Second, I do not subscribe to the indoctrinations of the bible as it results in the same mentality on display from the ANC faithful...blind devotion without original thought but that is a debate for another day.
Third, thank you for pointing out my spelling error and you are correct when explaining the time vs edit ability/function of posters here. I too fall victim to the curse of the keyboard.
Fourth, I am not a product of an ANC (endorsed) education. I was educated long before the ANC got stuck in and destroyed what was a more than an adequate and internationally acceptable education system.
Fifth, as mentioned I was focussing on the issue at hand and demonstrating the short comings of the short-sighted policies the ANC likes to adopt. It was the respondents who turned the thread in a bun fight and got their proverbial knickers in a knot.
Sixth, I agree whole-heartedly with you comment about us needing to actively get involved in educating and informing people about how their rights and civil liberties are being 'trampled on' to put it mildly. If you have read any of my comments on other threads you might have picked it up but then again you are probably to busy to have noticed. I make an effort to try and put my observations across but quite often comes up against the notion that there are none so blind as those who will not see and cannot or will not objectively view the world around them and see what their elitist leaders are really up to. This however will not deter me or cause me to faulter in my pursuit of real democracy in a country that I love dearly and, despite what the ANC sheeple may believe, call my only home. I will continue to fight to make this a better place and if that makes some people unhappy or uncomfortable they can, to use a phrase from their beloved ANCYL leader (for now), EAT CAKE.
Lastly, I make no apologies nor do I seek forgiveness for my comments or viewpoints or opinions for that matter.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 573 days ago
Peace children of God, no killing each other here or anywhere you guys might happen to meet.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 573 days ago
@ Ultimatum...you said "@ Rogue Trooper

If I were to lieft a finger now I would surely kill you, so let me save you for another day."

Please could you clarify the point you are attempting to make here...or are you just making a threat?

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 574 days ago
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Charles "Charlie" Dempsey, CBE (4 March 1921 – 24 June 2008) was a Scottish-born New Zealand association football administrator who infamously abstained from FIFA's final round of voting for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, in a move which eventually saw the competition being awarded to Germany rather than South Africa. Wikipedia. The two MPs betrayed the organisation that entrusted them with the power to express the party's position taken in a properly constituted structure such as the caucus. The absence of the 34 MPs is a pre knowledge that the party made allowance for. The 2 MPs just a suprise elements, and they promoted disorder. Why vent your anger by walking way instead of not even pitching to vote, the ANC would have made other means. Does anyone remember that Tevez (soccer, England) refused to play on the day despite being fit and on the playlist?. When he was most needed by his team, he refused to play. The MPs should have done their thinking during the 4 caucus and should have searched their souls there, and should have alerted the chief whip to the fact that the MPs are reading a wrong Bill.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 574 days ago
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The basic tenent of democracy is not that everybody should do as they wish, but that they uphold and respect a decision made by a majority. Majority being greater than 50%. The 2 are not nearly a 50% of the 200+ MPs. They should vote in line with the wishes of the majority of the MPs. They had ample time to have ther thouhts heard before the voting.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 574 days ago
They should just fall on their swords.
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shelatt

Posted 574 days ago
All you pro ANC contributors to this forum - Please don't forget that the majority of the MP's are corrupt and many now have criminal records (see Travelgate findings). They will naturally vote for this bill because their past, current and future corrupt dealings will now be hidden for the next 20 years. You will all have egg on your face when the truths are revealed. None of you can deny that there is MASSIVE corruption with this government, so be more circumspect when making comments.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 574 days ago
Do we have a standardised international barometer for testing the corruptness of an individual?. Like polygraph(lie detector) test or a psychometric test?. I think the government should invest in such a test and subject its MPs to a most vigourous assessment of corruptiveness. The results are not classified information and will be made widely available in every public domain. Then if on the scale of 1 to 10, the MPs are found rotten, it will register a 9 or 10. If these guys are saints it will register a 1. If its a 5, then we need to engage an international consultancy firm in human behaviour to test how the MPs are likey to behave in situations invoving money. Like droping a R50 on the corridor of his office and see if he picks it up and gives it to 'lost and found'. Only once these MPs pass, the public will have a widespread trust and confidence in its government. Sound ridiculous?.
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BobbyBob

Posted 573 days ago
What utter rubbish.
Even ANC MPs must have a mind they can make up on principle issues that face the country. One day we are told the ANC is a broad church, many opinions , now its a najority opinion that counts.
Democracies the world over have MP's that will vote against the party where the matter is weighty enough.

NeoBlack

Posted 574 days ago
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I listened to Ben Turok on SAfm yesterday, and he made a whole lot of sense. However, I think it was ill-discipline on his part not to follow the party processes in expressing his researvations. He knows the traditions of the ANC and has been part of those traditions for years. So it raises eyebrows for him to now all of a sudden attack an agreed upon party position outside the structures of the party.
No party/ organisation can survive without discipline. I think the ANC should reign supreme against its ill-disciplined members, just like they did with Malema.
It is interesting that people who did not toe the party-line are non-black. One can only wonder if during national elections they also vote as individuals or as ANC members. I have always suspected that the ANC is inflitrated by people who do not push the party's agenda, but their own personal ends/ or even the ends of the opposition
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Saif

Posted 574 days ago
Can not agree more on your view right there and its high time the ANC wakes up in identifying these individuals before focusing on 2012 and the only way is through the DC...failure to do so it might end up decomposing bit by bit internally by the same ethics potrayed by hon. Turok & the Grama.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 574 days ago
You right Neo, it makes me wonder whether any ANC MP votes DA during National Elections.
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BobbyBob

Posted 573 days ago
Really, you think only non-black people are people of principle.

Once you belong to a party , you should still object to any matter that violates your principles. Once you are a member of a party , there may well be disagreement when it comes to voting, see how often that happens in other democracies. As we are often told, the ANC is a broad church with many views. And I think that's good. You dont seem to think so.

What you want is that MP's all follow their leader, do as they're told. Well that's not freedom , that's blind enslavement to a leader, a strong man, and that's very unhealthy in a democracy.

Saif

Posted 574 days ago
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I'M referring to 'Granma Borman" there!!!!

Tebogongwana2010

Posted 573 days ago
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A couple of weeks ago the ANC was the toast of town after the DC ruling against Julius Malema and the ANCYL NEC. I told people that they are celebrating the birth of subtle dictatorship. I was insulted with words like " Get off Juju's nuts" etc. At the time the principles of democracy that people are crying about now were not an issue simply because of the victim. Now the same rules are applied to others suddenly ANC is bad. What a turnaround. I hope the ANC take these ill disciplined members to DC and suspend them. As one 15 minutes celebrity Derek Hanekom said" Discipline is none negotiable in the ANC".
Next in the firing line is anyone who dares compare the dancing queen to previous ANC presidents. Apparently is a big crime in the ANC. Haak Vrystaat, the chickens are coming home to roost. Hold on tight this is just

Tebogongwana2010

Posted 573 days ago
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the beginning. That tsunami Vavi told us about is finally here.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 573 days ago
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I am sceptical of prophets of doom. I am also sceptical of an imminent Apocalypse. Vavi is a member of the Alliance and should utilise the channels the Alliance has established to vent his frustrations and not randomly hang a dirty laundry where everybody should see it. I admire Mr Ndzimade for his maturity and understanding what an Alliance is. Vavi can be a great catalyst of chnage if only he did not operate as an opposition to the ANC.
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BobbyBob

Posted 573 days ago
Much to your disgust, it is a normal democratic right of people to have an opinion , even if that runs contrary to that of the party to which they belong. And, thismatter is not "dirty laundry". It is about principles.(remember?)

It would all not matter so much, if the issue of corruption was not debilitating to the country . It will ruin us.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 573 days ago
Bobby, wouldn't it have shattered you confidence if your parents started shouting at each other in a parent's meeting at Prmary School? They'd rather do home, shut the bedroom door kill each other in there, bring each other back to life in there and come out smiling.
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BobbyBob

Posted 573 days ago
Now you're being disengenious. This is not a primary school matter, this is about our future and our children's future.
But since you ask, if it came to a shouting match I would not like that, but if it came to a vote , it would not matter if they voted differently. I would know that they both have my best interests at heart even though they see that differently.

That is not the case here, I do not believe that the ANC has the country's interests at heart in this matter. They cajole compliance , the bill is to the detriment of the country for the benefit of the few. f you had principles you to might vote against the bill.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 573 days ago
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I am afraid that the Constitution, the Criminal Procedures Act, and whatever laws are existing right now are worth as much as toilet paper, since the ANC corrupt elite and the stupid supporting "majority" are determined to establish the totalitarianism they need to ransack the country.

And why not?, the rest of miserable Africa is fighting for decades to get rid of the cancer that contaminates the inhabitants from birth seemingly, and just to end one thief's kingdom to start the next one, while the rest of flies are born in poverty and fecal matter and die equally like flies. And generation after generation of morons still ask why Africa is constantly colonised and raped....

This large organized crime syndicate known as ANC is dealing with trillions of money, just like the drug-trafficking business. The poor ethics and moral principles ("european" standards, that is) of its constituent element will never give up such a booty without fight......Hence they try to tighten their grip on the open arks and they NEED URGENTLY an absolute control on the media, as it happens so far.......Now the Judiciary with a "yes,Boss" head, they are on the relentless attack:

"the Cabinet says the decisions by the Constitutional Court will be "assessed" as part of a broader review of 'transformation' in South Africa's judicial system. says "Give-me-money" Jimmy Manyi has announced (Mail&Guardian)....

.."The African National Congress has placed the relocation of Parliament to Pretoria squarely back on the table. "(M&G)......

So, these two poor flies represented by Turok and Borman, flying over the immense cow-dun.g cake will be wiped out by a single tail stroke easily. What is their worry?..They knew exactly the kind of mafia elements they were going to associate with, so they should not be surprised......and on top, they are not " darkies"......And, that particular characteristic of their skin out of tune with the surrounding darkness, also singles them out for their "indiscipline" ........And for the "ethereal" moron lines above who is so happy "he/she can think", democracy does not mean one must follow and do where and what the rest of monkeys do.....The TENETS of democracy can be summarized:

- Majority rule, BUT NO TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY:" While there is rule by the majority, the rights of every one must be clearly spelt out and systematically protected. The majority cannot do whatever it wants"

-Freedom of expression, speech and the press.
-Freedom of religion and belief.
-The right to be treated equally under the law.
-Rights of minority and disadvantaged groups.
-A Constitution which is respected and upheld.
-Separation of powers.
-An independent Judiciary.
-An institutional system of checks and balances.

...All that is required, and I am sure the illuminati of the syndicate are working on it, is an armed body to deal effectively with dissidents: Army (at the moment it seems full of useless material) Police (there are still obstacles in spite of Generalissimos, that can spoil the controlling) or armed militias (the Purple Moron was promising, but his own greed finished him up).............
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 573 days ago
I hear you my man, today you make a lot of sense. But remember though that the Illuminati work more effectively though the media and a population than make wide genaralisations; things like stupid sheeeple of the ANC, girls collecting grants as a reward for pregnancy, the ANC corrupt elite, stupid supporting "majority", large organized crime syndicate known as ANC, mafia elements, not mean one must follow and do where and what the rest of monkeys do. Your comment borders around gross insult. But then who am I to knock in some sense into a skull that has been around for years and has absorbed beliefs it cares not to prove.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 573 days ago
'@mnb...whatever

''''''''''''''But then who am I to knock in some sense into a skull that has been around for years and has absorbed beliefs it cares not to prove.''''''''''''''''

=========================================

Perhaps it would be very good idea if you start by knocking some sense into your own indoctrinated and delusional head.

It is evident from your posts that you believe that the way you see things is the right way and the only way and that all the rest is just balderdash !
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 573 days ago
SuideGenerate, no one is grabbing your hand to type insults instead of clear headed facts. The Times has given us this platform and we are eternally thankful for that, but they did not tie your hands to the computer to write stuff that expose your lack of clear thinking. If my thinking is wrong, counter it with some sense and not insult and vile language.
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staren

Posted 573 days ago
Mnbvcx,

correct if I'm wrong, but doesn't insulting one person in one post:

"But then who am I to knock in some sense into a skull that has been around for years and has absorbed beliefs it cares not to prove."

and then criticising another poster for insulting you:

"but they did not tie your hands to the computer to write stuff that expose your lack of clear thinking."

strike you as just a tad HYPOCRITICAL??

Probably not...

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SuiGeneris

Posted 573 days ago
@ mnb....whatever

Another post made by you making it even more evident and once again confirming what I suspected all along.....You have a huge perception problem !

JeanCampbell_Collen

Posted 573 days ago
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As far as I'm concerned, Prof Turok and Gloria Borman should be lauded for refusing to tow the party line and vote for this flawed bill. The antics of certain "honourable" MPs in Parliament on Tuesday undermined my confidence in this institution.
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Feelgood

Posted 573 days ago
@Jean Campbell, the biggest myth spreaded by the ANC is that SA is a democracy and this is far from being the truth. SA was setup 1994 to be a fake democracy and not to let the people have a voice in the government. In the US members of the party don't always support their party bills in congress and nothing is done to those members. The people in the ANC pay lip services to democracy and when they feel threaten this party will become very repressive. There will be an attempt to destroy the court system by saying it has not been tranformed.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 573 days ago
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......."Illuminati" and "media" in principle are contradictory terms: secrecy versus open publication. The "illuminati" can control the media.....But more effectively, they can control a government, so they write a favorable Constitution, change it to suit them in time and essence, change laws, keep the sheeple ignorant and stupid and hypnotize them to convince how lucky they are to have been born, to live and die next to excrement and to feel pride when they see the castles the 'illuminati" build for themselves in the far horizon and are convinced that it represents an 'advancement for the majority'........So they can control and avoid sheeple that might start to open their eyes and see the mirage.......Also the "illuminati" can order the elimination of the more curious and inquisitive, but they will never be traced when those poor busteds were found in unmarked graves...........

"Illuminati" also implies a group of highly educated, intelligent and cultured people, not a horde of thieves with such pretensions....(unless they are highly intelligent and educated and cultured thieves)........

...It is such a disgrace (for the parents) to have a child born dumb, deaf and blind......but it is infinitely worse to choose to be one, be smiley and proud of it and to deride the ones who chose not to........They are hardly worth of "respect"..................

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 573 days ago
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""""""""""So you think African girls are just baby pumps. Your analysis really says you think very little of Africans in general Baas Frik . You are a danger to yourself."""""""

....................................................

""""To prevent the revolution from losing steam, Malema urged a full hall in the Ehlanzeni District Municipality building to have as many babies as possible. ­

“Having babies is a revolutionary thing. You must reproduce! If you shame a black man about his large family, you should immediately change your ­attitude.”"""""""City Press