So Many Questions: On ANC top brass implicated in State of Capture report

The ANC in the Western Cape has called on ANC members implicated in former public protector Thuli Madonsela's report on state capture to appear before the party's integrity commission. Chris Barron asked acting Western Cape ANC chairman Khaya Magaxa ...

Is this a declaration of war on President Jacob Zuma?

No, not at all. We feel that the ANC's integrity needs to be protected. And one of the ways to do this is to try to create an ANC that seeks to deal with corruption decisively, wherever it comes from. Therefore it was agreed: "Let's take everybody that was implicated in the state capture report..."

Nobody's been more implicated than Zuma, surely?

Other people have been mentioned also. That's why we said everybody whose name appears there - to have played a particular role - has to go to the integrity commission to explain him- or herself.

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Should Luthuli House have provided stronger leadership around the state capture report?

I think the ANC is handling it properly for now.

What are they doing?

We discussed the report at the NEC [national executive committee] of the ANC and a pronouncement was made that we have noted the report. Because the report doesn't have standing in terms of accusing so-and-so to have done A, B, C and therefore must be dealt with.

Why didn't you call for the appointment of a judicial commission, as recommended by the public protector, to be speeded up?

No, we can't do that.

Would you like to see it speeded up?

If I have that view I will raise it in a meeting of the ANC as a member of the NEC and the provincial executive committee. But we as the ANC in the Western Cape feel we need to be seen doing something about comrades that are implicated. It's not enough to say they must take the report to review if they like. We've moved beyond that and said they must go in front of the integrity commission and explain themselves so that the integrity commission can recommend to the NEC what should happen about them.

Do you think they're going to do that voluntarily?

The integrity commission acts on the instructions of the NEC, therefore we call on the NEC of the ANC that it must ask all those comrades to go to the integrity commission. Therefore the integrity commission will be instructed, according to our plea from the Western Cape, to instruct all those individuals to come. To summon them. All of them.

Will an internal process like this be enough to restore faith in the ANC?

Yes, because it will send a strong message in dealing with any form of corruption. The reason we established the integrity commission was to safeguard the integrity and credibility of the ANC. It can ask an individual to step aside while the allegations against him or her are being dealt with.

If you think the president is going to submit to this then you're being very naive, surely?

No, the president of the ANC is a member of the ANC. When we took that decision in the PEC [Provincial Executive Committee] we were doing that on the acknowledgment that all of us are treated [equally] under the same constitution. Our constitution doesn't talk about leaders and members, it talks about members. Therefore, any member of the ANC who has been implicated has to undergo that process.

Even if you achieve nothing, is your aim to send a message that the ANC in the Western Cape has zero tolerance for corruption?

On that one I can agree with you. We believe that our performance in the local government elections last year was primarily due to the perception of the public around corruption.

By standing up and saying that you have zero tolerance for corruption, aren't you in effect saying you no longer support the president?

We don't accept anybody whose image reflects, in the public eye, corruption. Whoever that person may be. Whether it's the secretary-general or the president or the deputy president, we won't support any person whose image in the public domain reflects a corrupt type of individual. Because there is a very thin line between an individual who is corrupt leading the organisation, and the organisation.

You also criticised the use of state institutions to settle political scores?

Yes.

What institutions?

Intelligence, for example. SACP membership, including the leadership, have been claiming that their phones are being interfered with by intelligence.

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When you say you will not tolerate the use of state institutions to settle political scores, are you not again in effect distancing yourself from the president?

No. We condemn the tendency which is there.

Whose political scores were you referring to?

We're not worried about an individual here, we're just killing the demon, the tendency, within our movement.

If you had the courage of your convictions, wouldn't you be more explicit?

If the minister of intelligence, for example, in the case of the SACP's allegations, is the person doing that, then we condemn that individual.

Shouldn't you be condemning the president who appointed him?

If it is the president who is instructing him to do that, then we condemn the president.