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Tue May 21 15:49:29 SAST 2013

Furious Cele vows to settle political scores

GRAEME HOSKEN | 14 June, 2012 00:04
FIGHTING BACK: Axed national police commissioner Bheki Cele at a briefing in Pretoria Wednesday

A defiant Bheki Cele made it clear yesterday he was out to expose ministers who conspired against him, a judge he claims was pressured to find him unfit to hold office and, ultimately, a president who erred in firing him.

While Cele said he would "shut up" - after holding a dramatic press conference in Pretoria yesterday - he signalled his intention to launch a court case contesting the findings of an inquiry headed by Judge Jakes Moloi that recommended he be dismissed as national police commissioner.

His usual outspokeness and confidence could at times not mask the deep anger he felt after President Jacob Zuma's announcement on Tuesday that he was fired.

Cele said he would go to court to have Zuma clarify which specific findings of the report he had relied on to arrive at his decision.

"There are mind-boggling aspects of [Judge Moloi's] decision, which are hard to fathom. I want the court to declare the entire Moloi report legally unsound. The consequence will render Zuma's decision unlawful."

Asked if he would accept his post back, Cele said: "I loved my job, but I am now 'unfit' and if I am 'unfit', how can I go back? I now have to move forward. I love politics and politics loves me. I will go home and think about what is next."

While he has asked to be left alone to rebuild his life in KwaZulu-Natal, it was clear from his statements yesterday that Cele intends to settle scores.

He accused anonymous ministers of having met Judge Moloi before the inquiry began.

''I have minutes of a meeting Moloi attended with the inquiry's prosecutors and others. They contain the names of a minister and ministerial representatives.

"During the meeting, additional charges against me were pressed for. These were taken to the president, who refused to entertain them," Cele said.

"Why, if this was an independent board of inquiry, was Moloi meeting people who were later tasked to persuade him to rule in their favour? I confronted a minister linked to the Moloi meeting and we are now 'comrades'.''

Judge Moloi said last night he did not have time to argue with people who did not know what they were talking about.

Cele was careful not to blame the ANC for his fate, saying: ''I will never abandon the ANC. I will die an ANC member. Even if I die and am told to join another party, I will rise and join the ANC again so that I can again die an ANC member.''

He said his legal team would challenge Moloi's report, in the Pretoria High Court, and vowed to report Moloi to the Judicial Service Commission.

''It is not a challenge against the president. On Friday, I left a meeting with Zuma feeling warm. Our relationship is like that of a CEO . I just hope he has insurance."

Asked about his relationship with Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa, Cele said: ''I have nothing to say to him.''

He insisted he had not resigned and had not received a golden handshake.

Two damning public protector reports on Cele's involvement in controversial police headquarters leases totalling R1.7-billion led Zuma to appoint the board of inquiry headed by Judge Moloi.

But Cele hinted yesterday that the inquiry was launched after he had insisted to Zuma that the Special Investigating Unit investigate the SAPS supply-chain management services for multibillion-rand fraud, and he had ordered the arrest and suspension of police crime intelligence chief Lieutenant-General Richard Mdluli.

''It was like so many other commissions of inquiry that are rigged,'' Cele charged.

''Dirty tricks were used. There were individuals who courted corrupt politicians, who put themselves before service delivery. These political overlords have betrayed the cause of the ANC.''

Cele said: ''I am a soldier and will be back. Even if it bankrupts me, I will expose the abuses of power. There was a persecution [of me] with no evidence to rely on.

''Attempts by my legal team to challenge the lack of evidence were denied, with Moloi saying a criminal investigation against me was warranted.

''I was thrown into the inquiry deliberately to be humiliated, with Moloi abandoning his oath to pursue the plot to get me out of office.''

Cele said he was concerned about how Zuma had come to his decision to fire him: ''How can I be unfit to hold office if the president has praised my crime-fighting abilities?''

The public protector had found that he had not signed any lease agreement, did not have a relationship with Roux Shabangu - the owner of the two buildings the police tried to lease - and there was no evidence of corruption in the culmination of Shabangu concluding the lease agreements with the Public Works Department, Cele said.

''The one adverse finding the public protector made against me was deliberately distorted to make a case of corruption. The finding was that I failed to ensure the lease agreements . were preceded by proper supply-chain management processes within the SAPS and were put out to tender.''

Cele said he would question the public protector over her conclusion on this issue.

He had initially welcomed the idea of the inquiry.

"My lawyers were going to cross-examine the witnesses.

"My court battle will lay bare the monumental errors of fact, logic and law that litter Moloi's report,'' Cele said.

SHARE YOUR OPINION

If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.

SecretVoice

Posted 341 days ago
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For a guy who vowed to leave quietly he actually makes a lot of noise. They say where there is smoke there is a fire. The problem with the current government set up is that corruption and mismanagement is so widespread that almost everybody involved are tainted. So the moment someone falls out of favour the tit for tat accusations start. The key question is how can one ever change this trend without firing the whole lot.
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BornintheRSA

Posted 341 days ago
Something these politicians and public officials don't understand. There is enough evidence against this man as being incompetent for his previous deployment. If he were to publicly apologise for straying from the straight and narrow and express some remorse, the public will forgive him and he could go on with his later part of life in peace. Instead, he will waste tax monies on fruitless, selfish court battles. This will further remove any sympathy for him.
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KafreeMoneykey

Posted 341 days ago
@ SecretVoice : "The problem with the current government set up is that corruption and mismanagement is so widespread that almost everybody involved are tainted"

That is spot on! Everyone knows everyone's closet and dirty linen!
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BradPeng

Posted 341 days ago
It is just so sad to see when people who simply can not accept his faults and move on considering what he did was unlawful. It is a laughable event after reading the news from Taiwan. The person who was responsible for the water infrustructure and affairs resigned after the city was flooded with rain caused by Typhoon in Taipei. Cele... REALLY?

Timbuck9

Posted 341 days ago
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Mr Cele.... (I can call you that, as GENERAL was NEVER apt).... The Emotions you are currently feeling / Suffering, is NOTHING, on how the South African TAX PAYER felt when the "Cat was let out the Bag"...on WHAT A LYING THIEF you ended up being EXPOSED AS!!!!!

We do not care where you end up, might be a Car Guard at the Union Buildings, or a Toilet Cleaner in Tuinhuis..... but where ever you end up... it must be as FAR AWAY from the Tax Payers money!

You are a SERIOUS PIECE of RUBBISH and WE, the Tax Payers are THRILLED to see the BACK OF YOU!!!!!
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SecretVoice

Posted 341 days ago
Hear hear!!!!
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BornintheRSA

Posted 341 days ago
I agree but we don't know what deal Zuma gave to him. The tax payers will probably pay for his fat pension and comfortable life style. And the losers are ...... the public who are deprived of services from diverted tax monies.

dexterlogan

Posted 341 days ago
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This is what South African politics is all about ' settling scores'- the so called leaders are so busy with their own pissing contest, they have forgotten the South African public. It's about time to put all pasts into the history 101 file, and move forward as a united South Africa. It's getting so bad, it's not just the whites that are packing their bags for greener shores. I have noted many educated and hard working black families giving up the South African dream for a better life abroad. It's time for a change and unfortunate the ANC don't have a suitable game plan to manage that change. We need a new broom as this one is broken!
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Well don't forget those coming from abroad to SA. Many White people that are in this country weren't born here but they came to this beautiful country of ours. Surely we must be doing something right. Proud South African
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
U people cry foul when GOV wants to amand the constitution so that it will allow for an Economy driven society but u people cry foul. When they propose Economy policy change u peopple cry foul. U see u can't expect country to go forward when we still using the same constitution that was drafted 16 years ago. Times change & so is the world & we have to move with the times but u people still cry foul. Honestly i don't know what u want. As Charles Nqakula said it once u don't like this country then go, there are no shackles on your feet

Politicallycorrect

Posted 341 days ago
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Cele said: ''I am a soldier and will be back. Even if it bankrupts me, I will expose the abuses of power.
***********************************************************************************************************************
It's pathetic how these politico's suddenly develop a sense of righteousness the minute their comrades turn on them. My advice to the Cowboy, go stick your head where the sun doesn't shine.

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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U go for them CELE my General especially that Moloi. There was no corrruption found with ur leasing of tha building only that the building was over priced. Why don't they go nafter Mdluli? It's cause they are scarred of him.
Take them down Cele
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bugsy

Posted 341 days ago
Makoya1zn: Is your surname Shabangu perchance? Or... I know, it's Cele!
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
@ buggsy LMAO no Sir?Madam Its Mhlongo

Stirrer

Posted 341 days ago
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This political score that Cowboy Cele wants to settle is a mere smokescreen - it is clear that he is playing for time. The real court case will be when evidence is found that the Cat in the Hat had a vested interest in Roux Skebanga's shady overpriced police accomodation deals!

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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@BornintheRSA what is it to u whay Zuma promised Cele. U go to work, mind your business & let the ANC run the country that they have been for the past 18 years & will do so till jesus COMES BACK. my ANC, my VISION, my FUTURE. ANC by default
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SecretVoice

Posted 341 days ago
Your comment is a perfect example of how shallow and pathetic most ANC voters are. No wonder the organization is such a mess. You dererve each other and eventually you will destroy yourselves.
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dexterlogan

Posted 341 days ago
For one to have a vision and a future you need to have a plan. The ANC don't seem to have that plan. It's 2012, South Africa needs a political party that has the commercial acumen to drive the country forward. The political tug of war has seen its death, anyone who realistically believes that the ANC has what it takes to create a economical sound South Africa that has a common goal and common objects is living in dream land!

South African voters still think about politics personally. It's time to change that mind set and think about politics economically.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Dexter the problem is that there is no political party that differs with ANC in therms of their policies, so i say better the devil u know
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dexterlogan

Posted 341 days ago
Once agin, politics driven by a personal bias!
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Where have i witnessed that before?

RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
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Strange how Mdluli's name keeps popping up. I wonder if the rumours about him being in possession of the Zuma tapes is true?

Cele does have a point. It is curious that none of the investigations bothered to follow the money trail. Roux must have paid someone a kickback or bought them a house but the investigators either can't be bothered looking or they don't want to know the answers.

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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@Stirrer What Cele wants to prove that there was no corruption in the lease & that there was a political agenda & mark my words once he's cleared he'll get a post in GOV again. He's not done in politics not even close
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Stirrer

Posted 341 days ago
I'll be very surprised if there was no corruption in the lease saga - this would then point to serious administrative bungling (not getting the best deal for taxpayers money).
The other alternative is that Roux is an ANC benefactor (getting inflated public income and covertly passing the difference over to the ANC)!
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Well Sir/Madam that is ur opinion & will treat it as such

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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@RSA.MommaCyndi regarding Mdluli remember where there is smoke there's fire. What we know for a fact is that JZ got the tapes from somewhere. Fact 2 We know Mdluli was listening to NPA conversations. Fact 3 Ngcuka, Selebi, Leornard McCarthy & Mbeki were part of the NPA who were alleged to be in those tapes that cleared JZ.

So i think it doesn't take a genius to figure out who got JZ cleared. The problem with JZ coming into power is that he owes it to so many people who worked dirty & tirelessly to get him there. So honestly speaking he owes them, i just think he is caught between a rock & a hard place.
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
That whole 'tapes' fiasco was ridiculous.
Ngcuka and McCarthy both denied that the conversation took place and they both requested that they be allowed to hear the tapes for themselves. Suddenly the tapes disappeared. The legalities of using evidence that is illegally obtained and a plagiarised judgement (which didn't even stand up when it was originally used) is also very questionable.

This is the danger of having a compromised president. It is not what you know or who you know - it is what you know ABOUT who you know

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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Cyndi the 1st rule of Politics is never get caught & the 2nd never admit to anything ofcourse Ngcuka & MvCarthy had to deny it. I read the transcripts of the conversation. I agree they were obtained illigally. What the then Acting directorate of the NPA(Mpshe) considered when JZ charges were dropped is the seriousness of the tapes & the ppl that were involved including Mbeki. He felt that if it ever went to court it could compromise National Security.
Imagine the President involved in a plot that would have brought the whole goverment to its knees.
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
Well they say the 11th commandment is 'thou shalt not get caught'. Seems it is true.

The problem is that if the conversation was between Ngcuka and McCarthy then why would letting them hear their OWN conversation be a compromise of National Security? JZ's lawyer heard the conversation and the country didn't turn to dust. Heck. Mbeki was the president and he wasn't allowed to hear the tapes so one has to wonder just how they decide on the level of security access.

Until we have a 'Watergate' type outing of all of these intertwined plots, they are simply going to keep forcing compromised candidates into the presidency to cover them up. I don't particularly want to see our government brought to its knees but if they have to keep putting in candidates who's hands are dirtier and dirtier in order to keep the secrets - it is likely that the country will be brought to its knees. That has far more serious ramifications
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 341 days ago
No! A government cannot be brought to 'its knees' as you put it, in a democracy. It gets voted out. Surely, national security cannot be equated with the security of criminals, or their party for that matter. It's by a serious dose of twisted logic that a person or persons involved in defrauding the whole country, get elevated to ruling the very country they defraud.

And we call a 'democracy' a system where criminals simply shift and replace one another from power, when their mercenary actions get threatened with exposure, leading to loss of power.

UDFSupporter

Posted 341 days ago
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Cele is such a prime example of what we have become in the new "democratic" South African. You see other examples on programmes like SA Idols where being rejected for being absolutely tone deaf is met with tantrums and downright rude behaviour. We believe our mediocrity is world class and close our ears to every reality check by claiming "they were out to get me".

I sometimes think that all ANC politicians were simply born crooked and that they must have emanated from a defective gene pool. But hell, there are just so many other ordinary South Africans who have the exact same attributes. Greed at all costs; zero accountability; no remorse for crimes committed against the poorest of the poor; heads-in-the-sand mentality about employment and the ability to implement solutions to our country's "challenges".

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Avatar
SecretVoice Shallow my foot. It wasn't shallow during apartheid right? Please u can't even begin to compare how SA is compared to apartheid era. Pathetic or not see if i care. Yes we deserve each oither because all we ever had was each other even during the hard times of apartheid when we were treated lees than humans. Get one thing forgiving is one thing & forgetting is another thing. I might forgive but will never ever forget.

It is easy crying foul when things don' go your way right?. It's only the begining there is Nationalisation, secrecy bill, amendment of the constitution & many more to come. I wonder what u will be saying then. Brace urselves. The struggle of OR Tambo thats's what i'm giving you. my ANC, my Vision, my Future. By the way who is better to lead this counrty DA, COPE or IFP or pleaseeeeeeeeee
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SecretVoice

Posted 341 days ago
I rest my case.

BTW why are you continually changing your name. Who are you hiding from?
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
@SecretVoice never chaned my name i registered to TimesLive today & was never registered before. U must be confusing me with someone else

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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@ m1si2zi3nzo4 1question : Did Mbeki & his puppets get voted out?? I'll listen on the radio LMOA
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 341 days ago
pls refer to my second paragraph above.

Francis

Posted 341 days ago
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I have the strong feeling that Cele has 783 by the short hairs and like Sheik, will walk free to the South African golf courses to enjoy the taxpayers moneys.

By now 2012, we will never forget that there is no honour between criminals!

That's why they wish to act in secrecy like rats. And hopefully, like rats they soon will hide in sewers before being eliminated the kadaffi way.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Hey hey i take offence whn it comes to Muammar Gadaffi. The man was a legend & only history will judge him.
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Francis

Posted 341 days ago
@Makoya1zn
When referring to your friend kadaffi, zuma and ilk, I expect that history books will mention them like they do with the great Roman Emperor Caligula. Celebrities who miss one of the five are the colours in the books and make reading less tiresome.

Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
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@Cyndi what difference would it have made if they had listened to the tapes. They just wanted confirmation if they indeed were caught with their pants down. I would also have not given the tapes to them if it were me.
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
If I said to you that I have you on tape saying something and you say that you didn't say that so you want to hear the evidence, would your request be unreasonable?

Conversations can be taken out of context and whole sentences can be left out to make them sound like something they were not. Without access to the evidence, the defence is left with the impossible task of trying to prove a negative.
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
█ ██ █ ████ everything ███ ███ is ███████ ████ fine ████ ███ love, ███████ ███ your █████ ████ government. - Black Tuesday

(was originally for the media muzzling bill but it could relate to the tapes too?)
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
I have no problems whatsoever with it so long as it doesn't compromise state security. First protect the state at alol costs & the rest shall follow. There is no greater failure of a nation than that of which its security is bridged. That is politics 101 & if u don't understand that u must go to a political school my feloow South African.

As Al capone once said: Politics have relation to morals
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
So I must go to political school because I believe that a person is entitled to a defence ????

That is going from the sublime to the ridiculous as if a person is not entitled to defend themselves and ANYTHING that could prosecute someone is taken as unchallengeable due to a level of security (that even sitting state president cannot verify) - well then Zuma should be in jail as all accusations are automatically true. Therein lies the dirty great hole in your argument.

No argument was put forward as to why the information was a matter of state security and no verification was made as to what form of a threat it would pose. Hence it has to be assumed that the secrecy act was invoked purely to prevent Zuma from making good on his promises to 'not go down alone' and 'spill the beans'.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Ha...ha...ha... I don't mean any bad by my statement. I just think they themselves(Ngcuka & co) should have gone to court to prove their innocence if they belived they were(i seriously doubt it). By them keeping quiet it shows there is some truth to the tapes.

Maybe u can tell me just 1 country that does not have protection of information Bill. People are not accusing the Bill itself just the PUBLIC INTEREST clause on the bill of which it will be difficult to decide which information is of public interest hence the delay but believe me it will come into effect & I for one can not wait for dat day.

Who do u honestly van run this country better than the ANC? You know we as people have a tendency to complain & whine instead of appreciating what SA has achived thus far in just under 2 decades compared to 5 decades of Aprtheid when we were treated even less than human beings. I may move forward but i will never forget what our parents had to go through in those trying times in fact i'm bitter about it.

But i don't blame people its in their nature. The people of Israel turned against Moses after he had rescued them from Egypt so why should i expect u to be different.
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buddi

Posted 341 days ago
Makoya1zn - do you really believe the ANC is doing a good job in running the country? I don't think so.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
@Buddi more YES and less NO.Do u know who can run it better than they are?? but then again u are entitled to your opinion
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
I mean they can do better right??? Nationalise all major sectors of the economy(like how that idiot JUJU wanted). Expropriate land without compansation like how these ANCYL idiots want right???. U just wait for MANGAUNG if they suceed to remove Zuma & SA will be like Heaven now compared to what is gonna be like if there is Leadership change in MANGUANG.
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
Makoya1zn

.... and what were they supposed to base their case on? Tapes that could not be heard and had already disappeared?

Don't try to muddy the waters by hauling out the apartheid card or the Witgevaar card. Nowhere did I make this into a political issue. Yes, it is about individuals within a political party and their factions but this is more than the ANC or DA or any other party. Just in case you are of the belief that Mbeki was a DA member, may I remind you that he was the head of the ANC so it was an INTERNAL problem and had nothing at all to do with Verwoerd, Malan or any other person who was morse dood at the time.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
I'm no Lawyer yet but i know if someone accuses u, u go to court to prove your innocence. Based on what i honestly don't care
T
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 341 days ago
aaah okay then. It makes sense now. You were too young to know what was happening at the time.

Theye

Posted 341 days ago
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i can picture the Zuma and Cele meeting. Zuma told him that he would have loved to protect him but we do not have 100%cadre deployment in the judiciary and this sell out Moloi recommendations could not be ignored due to the democratic process that we are restricted to under the constitution. so listen my pal., by all means take on this Moloi, and the sellout ministers that are supporting him and then if you win I can say i was misled by a coconut and have the power to force through some changes in the Judiciary and constitution and you may just get your job back. And with that a nice warm handshake.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
That could be true also. I mean what are friends for??. I assume u do have friends urself. I know i wouldn't sell my friend out but i don't know about u. Why should Cele be an exception.
I think he was the best police commissiner we have had since 1994.

Next we are changing the economic policy, we are are adopting 'GEAR' policy. My ANC, my Vision, my Future. I won't lie to you under the ANC ruling i have succeeded in life, so can anyone blame me for that. I am content with them in power till JESUS comes back.

danny.archer3

Posted 341 days ago
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I am absolutely LOVING 2012. It's certainly living up to the expectation I've had about the amount of sh!t that Showerhead and his comrades would find themselves in....and Mangaung will be the climax! Can't wait!

SoisSo

Posted 341 days ago
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Zuma should commission a TRC - Truth and Redeployment Commission. It's mandate would be to facilitate an all out name and shaming by the cadres and public offcials, and a guaranteed amnesty and a provision for a lifetime pension and a redeployment is other positions. This will stop once and for all the tendency by the corrrupt cadres and comrades to threaten the government when their dirt has been exposed. Followed by a voluntary disclosure program for officials to disclose any corrupt activities they might have been involved in. If in the future an accomplice in a corrupt transaction threatens you, then you can laugh it off and point to the certificate of amnesty on the wall.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
In case u did not know we are now moving towards the second transition of our democracy.
Economic emancipation at all costs even if it means we have to change the constitution itself with the majority we enjoy.

SoisSo

Posted 341 days ago
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Cele the hardcore has been replaced by a meekly woman. What a paradox! Zuma wanted a tough cowboy to deal with the tough street criminal but lo he did not forsee that most crime is perpetrated by soft criminals with a contract in hand. Cele was coned! by an intricate syndicate of white collar criminals. So the lady in charge will have to be careful. She is perfectly positioned by the head of the syndicate because she won't see a thing. She will sign and sign things she does not understand, she was hand picked -- a social worker.

Conradp

Posted 341 days ago
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Bheki Cele learn to shut up. In Afrikaans we say "Hou jou bekkie styf toe" This man was never in his life a Security Guard or A Policeman why was he picked in the first place. He lied to the Commission of Enquiry not knowing Roux (The Squint Eye) Shabangu. There was something in this Lease Deals for Cele no matter what. Bheki Cele's head is full of Knobkierrie marks that shows he might have some scores to settle with those who bullied him in his younger days. To now claim that he will expose Ministers tells the whole of South Africa he is just not happy losing his Generalship.
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danny.archer3

Posted 341 days ago
Cele must not shut up...or anyone taking the ANC/government to court for that matter. The more fires the ANC is putting out, the more they are distracted and exposed.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
Would you be happy??

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 341 days ago
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The ANC elite never accept accountability for their actions. Everyone else, but them, must account for their evil deeds. Cele blames the Public Protector, the judge, and the sneaky politicians, for wasting millions of tax payers' money, under his leadership. Zuma blamed Mbeki for 783 criminal charges which he refused to stand trial for. His 'best' friend's daughter had to take the blame for alleging that she was raped. The costs for e-Toll are blamed on the consumers who complain about its unfairness to them.

If its not apartheid, racism, etc, something else is always to blame, other than the person who gets paid for doing it.

This can be attributed to decades of life in exile, where some other states had to take care of the elite, without them lifting a finger.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
This can be attributed to decades of life in exile, where some other states had to take care of the elite, without them lifting a finger.

Who is to blame for that let me guess The ANC lol, U people will say anything to ndiscredit the movement but hey i guess its the freedom of expression that the ANC gave you. I rest my case
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Wiseguy

Posted 341 days ago
@Makohya......'This can be attributed to decades of life in exile, where some other states had to take care of the elite, without them lifting a finger.' M1 is not looking to blame..... he is making a diagnosis.....big difference! It is symptomatic of these so-called leaders that they need to find someone/anyone to blame for their short-comings!!

In fact, your alluded suggestion, that someone/something must be to blame to them going into exile in the first place, while correct, is indeed further/additional evidence of this diagnosis!!

We need leaders who will take resposibilities for their own actions and who will put the people(ALL the people) first in government!!
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Wiseguy

Posted 341 days ago
@Makohya......'This can be attributed to decades of life in exile, where some other states had to take care of the elite, without them lifting a finger.' M1 is not looking to blame..... he is making a diagnosis.....big difference! It is symptomatic of these so-called leaders that they need to find someone/anyone to blame for their short-comings!!

In fact, your alluded suggestion, that someone/something must be to blame to them going into exile in the first place, while correct, is indeed further/additional evidence of this diagnosis!!

We need leaders who will take responsibilities for their own actions and who will put the people(ALL the people) first in government!!
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Makoya1zn

Posted 341 days ago
@Wiseguy : 1st things first the name is Makoya. Who would u like to lead this country?
I'll listen on the radio lol. Answer me then we'll talk.
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Wiseguy

Posted 341 days ago
Makoya: We need a person who has the ability to lead by example with integrity, honesty with leadership qualities that allows them to put the country and its people first..... definitely before personal gain or greed. They should respect and honour the constitution we ALL faught so hard to get, yes! (not just the ANC but millions and millions of other citizens of all races, creeds and cultures faught hard for this constitutional democracy in many many different ways)!

You see what you in the ANC so often tell us is that so many bad things are the 'blame' of Apartheid and its consequances......and I/we agree with you, but what you so conveniently forget to mention is that we are all victims(every single citizen of RSA in one way or another) of this Apartheid mentality and its consequances. As such, we need a leader in RSA who can set an example to us ALL, as to just how we can slowly grow into a non-racial, tolerant, non-discriminatory society, with equal opportunity for all, while respecting and upholding the law and the constitution!! OH and equal opportunity means NO racism, nepotism, cronyism, favouritism or tribalism, btw!!!!

Big ask, yes I know, ;-))....but nothing wrong in striving for perfection is there?
Now answer me this....why do you want to listen to the radio?
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Wiseguy

Posted 341 days ago
In a more simplistic form:

Rule 1: Do no harm ( which includes corruption, stealing, nepotism, cronyism, tribalism, racism, sexism, mal-administration, greed, and all criminal offences ect ect)

Rule 2: Do good (which includes setting an excellent example of non-racism, hard work, tolerance, understanding, respect, helping the people in numerous ways, growing and building the country and its people ect ect).

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Makoya1zn

Posted 340 days ago
@WiseGuy U do sound like ur username(WiseGuy) unlike these people who complain & dont make any valid points. Big UP 2 u for that.

My question(u did not seem to get) was who would u like to lead this country(a person not a type).
What u have described to me is an Idead candidate or should i say a perfect person but in reality no leader will ever be like that ever(worldwide).
To be a president means u have to make or take decision not to please a few but for the greater good of the country. I think our GOV does make that decision at the moment if not why would JZ be at Union Buildings, people have spoken & ANC almost got 2 thirds majority. Unless u tell me the votes were rigged or something. To me the people have spoken, 11 millions South Africans have spoken.

To me democracy is where the majority rules & i think in SA we have that at the moment. Unless ANC losses elections i will always believe they are doing a good job. Democracy is not only an opinion of the minority but that of the majority. If u think 11 million voters are all stupid then i don't know who is clever. I do agree ANC have their weak side but so is everyone else that means there are bound to be problems because individuals work for GOV & u cannot help what an individual might/might not do. All we have to do is to fire those corrupt individuals which i think they are doing. Since 2010 more than 185 GOV members who were corrupt or not doing their jobs were fired, to me this shows commitment from GOV to speed up service delivery & get rid of corrupt individuals.

Once again i'll listen on the radio.
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Makoya1zn

Posted 340 days ago
You don't pay attention to detail nhe? I said i will listen on the radio not TO THE radio my friend
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Wiseguy

Posted 340 days ago
Makoya, thanks for the compiment, I try, don't always get it right.....as you mentioned we r all human. You not to bad urself judging by ur comments, btw!
Now who do I want....hmmmm, u see the problem is, even as a fairly well informed member of the public, I just don't now enough about our potential leaders to make any sort of informed decision. Often, thanks to the media, all we get is bad publicity about them and their potential replacements! And it is difficult to them decide on anyone capabilities or integrity for that matter?

It would be nice if there was more public debate, as in, if potential leaders would debate certain issues in the publics eye.....then we would get a better understanding of them and gauge one against the other and see how they stand on certain issues....... Like they are made to do in the USA and UK.

As it stands now, it is really only about 1000 ANC delegates who actually decide who will lead the good ship RSA......hardly democratic, I may add, and potentially open to abuse, just given the small numbers involved ??

We should consider a seperate presedential election, as they do in many other countries, where the entire country votes, with several public debates between candidates, which whould give us ignoramuses a chance to better judge the person and their merits or demerits, as it is!!

OK, I will now leave u to your radio?? whats on??
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Wiseguy

Posted 340 days ago
LOL, u r correct!! Ok, im actually working hard on something else! so u only have half my attention!!
Ok, so why listen TO the radio??
Oh and excuse all the typo's in the previous post.....my hurrying!!?
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Makoya1zn

Posted 340 days ago
It is about 1000 delegates representing their branches which equals to about 11 million registerd ANC members myself included because to be a member u have to belong to a branch, that's how we do it as the ANC, proffessional right??? bet u didn't think darkies were capable of it right(no pun intended)??.

U see public debate doesn't prove who's better than who but all it proves is who can lie & talk better. If that was the case JZ would have gotten about 20 million votes(the man is a great speaker). Look at what happened to Senator McCain against Obama he was outtalked but Obama is failing USA dismally.

I am a 2nd year student through UNISA(political Science) & the first rule of politics is promise everything & deliver what u can. Politics have no relation to morals hence its not for the weak & faint hearted.

For the 3rd time i will listen ON the radio not TO the radio. was supposed to be a joke but i guess u left ur humour in bed this morning