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Sun May 26 02:28:03 SAST 2013

Killing field

ALON SKUY, KINGDOM MABUZA and AMUKELANI CHAUKE | 17 August, 2012 00:51

"Kill us too, please, abelungu [whites]."

These were the words of a miner wounded when the police opened fire on thousands of strikers at Lonmin's platinum mine in Marikana, outside Rustenburg, as he hurled insults at the police - and urged them to finish him off.

The extremely tense week-long stand-off between police and striking workers at the mine in North West ended in just over two minutes of bloodshed when the police opened fire with semi-automatic assault rifles and pistols just before 3pm yesterday.

After the police operation, which lasted for about 15 minutes, at least 18 striking workers lay dead or wounded, covered in blood and dust, in the open veld near the notorious Marikana Hill.

Ten other people, including two policemen, have been killed in violence at the mine since the weekend.

President Jacob Zuma last night expressed sadness and alarm at the bloodshed, which started shortly after police advanced on the hill to disarm the strikers.

After negotiations between the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union and about 3000 rock-drill operators deadlocked, the police gave the gathering 10 minutes to disperse. The union wanted the strikers to give up their arms and return to work.

The crowd instead formed a line and, crouching, struck their pangas and sharpened iron rods together to create a war beat. The line slowly advanced towards the police, crossing the barrier line the police had set up. The police opened fire when the strikers attacked an armoured Inyala.

They first used stun grenades and rubber bullets - but when a striker was seen pulling out a shotgun and firing at the police, the police switched to live ammunition.

After the hail of bullets - which was caught by television camera crews - only dust and gunsmoke hung in the air.

Several bodies lay on the ground, some piled on top of others. Some of the bodies lay face down with gaping head wounds; others were bleeding from the stomach. One man had half his head blown away.

National police spokesman Captain Dennis Adriao, who was on the scene yesterday, could not be reached last night.

Earlier yesterday, he said detectives were investigating the 10 killings over the past week, including those of two policemen, two security guards and striking miners.

The workers have been on an illegal strike since Friday, demanding that their salaries be increased from R4000 to R12500 a month.

Lonmin, the mine's owner, is the world's third-largest producer of platinum products.

On Sunday, two security guards were found burned to death in their patrol car. Another man was found stabbed to death that night. A fourth body was found with five bullet wounds on Monday morning.

Two policemen dispatched to the area were shot dead on Monday afternoon.

The initial outbreak of violence has been blamed on animosity between the National Union of Mineworkers and the Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union.

It is understood that national police commissioner Riah Phiyega was on her way to the mine late last night.

Some of the striking workers claimed yesterday that they were attacked last Friday by leaders of the NUM, whom they accused of collaborating with their enemy - Lonmin.

"We were attacked when we were on our way to a meeting [on Friday]. Those NUM leaders killed us because they are protecting the employer," said a worker who identified himself as Tau Tau.

"They [NUM leaders and Lonmin] have called the police to come and kill us. We are not afraid because we work underground and our lives are forever at risk," said worker Andries Tsinyao. An unidentified worker, who addressed his fellow strikers, dared the police to attack and "we will see who would be left on the ground".

Frans Baleni, general secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers, said that though the union supported the police's use of force, it had not expected the loss of lives. "We regret the further loss of lives and it is unfortunate that it has led to this.

"We call on the police to launch a full investigation to bring the perpetrators who were behind this gathering to book."

Joseph Mathunjwa, president of the Association for Mineworkers and Construction Union, blamed Lonmin's management for its "reluctance" to meet the workers and hear their demands. "The management committed that they would negotiate with the workers on condition that they return to work, but they appeared to back-track yesterday."

In a statement last night, Lonmin chairman Roger Phillimore said: "We are treating the developments around police operations this afternoon with the utmost seriousness. It goes without saying that we deeply regret the further loss of life in what is clearly a public order rather than labour relations-associated matter."

Baleni claimed at a press conference in Johannesburg that a hit-list of names of NUM leaders, being circulated at Marikana, had been intercepted. He said the police had been told of the hit-list and the union had asked that the individuals it believed to be behind the violent illegal strikes be charged.

"[On] the list are names of branch leaders and shop stewards; one of the people killed was a shop steward. "We are not aware of any national leadership in that list," Baleni said.

''The shop stewards had to be removed, most of them, to be in a safe area, and unfortunately one didn't make it while the other one escaped with his life."

Zuma expressed his sadness at the ''tragic loss of lives of so many people''.

He said: ''We call upon the labour movement and business to work with the government to arrest the situation before it deteriorates any further. I have instructed law enforcement agencies to do everything possible to bring the situation under control and to bring the perpetrators of violence to book.''

Cosatu general secretary Zwelinzima Vavi said the violence that resulted in yesterday's shooting was being orchestrated. ''Broadly we believe there is an orchestration, a planned violence, because the violence that people are seeing today has been going on since January,'' he said. - Additional reporting by Sapa

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Daffy

Posted 281 days ago
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shocking !!!
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Francis

Posted 281 days ago
The killing dogs of this government are in the field doing a job they are paid for: shoot to kill.
The end of SA is near.
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Whyetfull

Posted 281 days ago
Thesse whyte fellas, killing our people again. From the pictures you can tell that they are the ones who fired the most/ in not the only live ammunition. Race-easts

Nightjar

Posted 281 days ago
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Ironic that Zuma expressed his sadness at the ''tragic loss of lives of so many people'' but not a word from him about the four murders resulting from ANC inspired riots in Cape Town. ANC democracy in action.
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 281 days ago
Remember the Minister who expressed 'cold' feeling at Steve Biko's death? All these 'shoot to kill' expressions have been with us all the time. We just do not want to believe what we see.
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v_3

Posted 281 days ago
Business Day revealed that Cosatu-affiliate NUM's membership dropped from 66% to 49%, resulting in the mine serving a notice that, having fallen below 50% + 1, NUM was at risk of losing its representation.

Apart from deligitimising NUM and Cosatu, this places union fat cats' jobs at risk.

The ANC and its partners do not take kindly to losing their self-ordained role of being the sole representative of the masses, whether on a mine or in the Western Cape. Both situations have brought forward the same response: orchestrated violence, mob rule and blaming others for it.

"ANC democracy in action" - rolling mob action.

BornintheRSA

Posted 281 days ago
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This is truly sad on all accounts. But the police cannot be made out to be at fault. These miners were out of control, violent and threating. There is some report of there being firearms in their possession as well. The miners are responsible for their own behaviour as adults.
On a second point, the unions don’t' deserve to exist because they did nothing to show leadership to the members. They have no control over the members - or they have indirectly led them into this violence.
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deebee

Posted 281 days ago
Your second point is absolutely spot on: no leadership at all. Unfortunately, htere is a complete lack of leadership at most levels in South Africa, whether it's unions, the ANC-led alliance, big business or opposition political parties. There is no common vision for South Africa's future, no plan (no realistic one, anyway, Trevor), no commonality of purpose - just mistrust, antipathy and a winner-takes-all, to each his own philosophy of wealth accumulation within the upper reaches of each of these sectors. And it's burning the country.

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 281 days ago
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Again Zuma is out of the country. How does he master this disappearing trick when a crisis is looming.

Mineworkers must understand that NUM became a state union after Barayi. It has been since 'negotiating' sweet agreements since then. It now directly instructs police to 'shoot' any rival organisation bringing in militancy in the mines it owns. We had 1960, 1976, and now 2012. Vorster, Vlok, and Mthethwa! all protecting a nation state against its people.

SecretVoice

Posted 281 days ago
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Welcome to the ANC's own "Sharpeville"
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v_3

Posted 281 days ago
The police recently announced that they would stop using rubber bullets - one supposes the ANC's "shoot-to-kill" policing philosophy means that live bullets are preferable.

Just as at Sharpeville, the police were not given an alternative to live rounds. The difference being that in 1961 they knew no better but since then non-lethal anti-mob police control techniques have advanced. One must not also forget that, on the one hand, the ANC begrudges buying policemen the best in safety (anti-riot) kit, on the other hand, we learnt what the nouveau elites attitude to miners is during the Aurora debacle. Baleni and Vavi, naturally, are part of this nouveau elite class, as is Comrade BMW 750i who heads up the SACP.

Mike123

Posted 281 days ago
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The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
The only comment on this article that hit the nail perfectly on the head.

Ziyeka

Posted 281 days ago
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It is quote clear and evident that our police force is incapable of controlling violence..after all the history of violence we've been thru as a country, our law enforcement agencies have no art of containing violent protesters. I was also amazed to see all the assortment of weapons being branded by the agrieved strikers. Why the hell bring dangerous weapons for a wage strike?

The less said about the unions, the better...as long as people continue to believe in these phony unions. As for the employers, they are a disgrace and anathema to the world! For crying out aloud, did you see all the shacks surrounding the mine? This goes to show that no investment and no development commitment from the greedy mine bosses, and the government is tweedling fingers and doing nothing about it! Sad, sad indeed to be brought back to the violence of the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's..

RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 281 days ago
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I could not believe what I was seeing on the news last night. It was like something out of a movie and certainly not something that I had ever expected to see in my own country. Is there something in the water that is turning our people into rabid animals?

The cops had little option, given the tools to hand. Which makes me wonder why our police are so ill equipped to deal with these kinds of riots. Unfortunately, once again, our Ministers will be completely unaffected by this as they can just hide behind the 'collective' excuse.

Les4uu

Posted 281 days ago
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My deepest condolences to the bereaved....

I think these useless unions of NUM and AMCU have learned a lesson because what they do is to milk the vulnerable workers of their membership fees without any benefit in return, i mean surely if the Unions have done their homework by represeting these workers properly this illegal strike should have been avoided.

nkosipeter

Posted 281 days ago
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Our BRICS partner (China) always use live ammunition as a FIRST resort.

They don't have any violent protests, and as a result they don't have to shoot anybody.

Food for thought.

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ODIN_EXPAT

Posted 281 days ago
Silly comparison, China is an oppresive non-elected regime.
China does not claim to be democratic, SA does!

MicaParis

Posted 281 days ago
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The Unions have got a constitutional mandate to avoid embarrassment which they had caused our poor workers on this issue, this amount to total Union failure and as such I expect Comrade Baleni to resign as he had shamed our workers to the core level of irritation and yet he expect Zuma to make him a Minister after Mangaung!?.
Class inequalities still perpetuate a master-servitude configuration in the economy. We need an ascending shift from managing our Government and institution on lies and deceit to a honest administration which play strictly by the rules. Fooling each other through a system of collective cadreship self enrichment will not take us anywhere as this rotten folklore can not be sustainable going into the future.
For how long are we going to tolerate running our Government and institution through deliberate hypocritical purpose and deceive?
Most comrades who were placed in cabinet or general government administration were fresh from exile, some from prison; there were others whose only experience was in organisation offices and work underground, this type of deadwood Government leadership must be immediately get rid of so that we can embrace a type of leadership that can cope with the social dynamics of the 21 century.
We need to take workers serious, Unions are not supposed to be part of Government administration, nobody can afford to serve two masters simultaneously! If we take our workers serious, than we have to promulgate a legislation that will demarcate the Government responsibility and Unions mandate in public service.
Why do we have to let the Government to rule the Unions by radar and gunpoint in exchange of fat Government posts and tenders while our workers who are paying hefty Union fees always get stuck at the bottom in destitute while the Union leaders ascend to the top Government throne!?
The government has its shortcomings, but the core aim is to learn from all those mistakes and constructively critique them and take lessons in shaping the society that we all envisage.
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QPCLCD308

Posted 281 days ago
''Why do we have to let the Government to rule the Unions by radar and gunpoint in exchange of fat Government posts and tenders while our workers who are paying hefty Union fees always get stuck at the bottom in destitute while the Union leaders ascend to the top Government throne!?''
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Once again Mica, I always look forward to reading your comments, they are the reason why I always log into timelive! Your comments does not take sides and are legit and articulate.
You nailed it once again, the only thing that the Union members want is the promotion to the top Government posts at the expense of poor workers who are currently being slained like chickens to be rosted. We cannot tolerate a type of Union leadership which is looking at self enrichment instead of executing their core constitutional mandate. Union members must stop positioning themselves for top government posts and tenders at the expense of mass funerals of our poor workers just like SACP where comrades just join politics just to access the gravy train. This must stop, I agree a legislation must be promulgated to separate Unions from total Government control and domination through fat posts and tenders.
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carel.steenekamp

Posted 281 days ago
We will never achieve a fair dispensation across the socio-economic spectrum with the current balance of political power.

To, to paraphrase some dead person, 'Lie back and think of South Africa' when you vote for the DA in the next election.
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KafreeMoneykey

Posted 281 days ago
How is a dispute between a privately owned company which is listed in the London Stock Exchange and the Unions suddenly becomes an ANC problem? How is it possible that the deadlock within Lonmin and the two Unions suddenly becomes an ANC problem?

The fact is that Lonmin is remunerating their miners way below the norm as compared to other mining companies like IMPLATS, ANGLO PLATS, and RBH as per the reports last night. There is no underground miner in the other companies who earns R4000 per month. That is why strikes of this nature were never experienced by these companies, they pay their employees fair salaries.

The government would have acted in an irresponsible manner should they have failed to deploy police to the site. They deployed the police to protect both Lonmin and the Unions, which is their responsibility. Even if the DA or FF+ or IF was in government the police would have most likely acted in the same manner especially after their colleagues were murdered yesterday. The root cause of all this mess starts from Lonmin and it was made worse by lack of leadership demonstrated by the Unions.

To those who think under the DA government the outcomes were going to be different, shame on you for cheap politiking. I know that the only worry by Edward Haslam
CEO (London), John Robinson Finance Director (London), and Peter Ledger Managing Director(SA) is the share price! They are so good that their incompetence is blamed on the ANC...

@MicaParis "If we take our workers serious, than we have to promulgate a legislation that will demarcate the Government responsibility and Unions mandate in public service."

No, if we take our workers seriously we have to remunerate them market related salaries, and train and develop them...
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MicaParis

Posted 281 days ago
Comrade KafreeMoneykey
I agree with the economic incentives by market related and above inflation salaries as that is another relevant valuable solution to the problem. But as usual the ANC does not necessarily listen if you did not take them to court, our comrades have a problem of making their constitutional core responsibility the last issue on their table, as such in a bid to ''force them'' to execute their duties court actions are normally vital through the enabling legislation as part of the perpetual prevention of embarrassing events like this especially in South Africa were the constitution is clear about protecting social and economic interests of our workers.

If our comrades cannot perform due to lack of relevant academic capacity and self enrichment, we need a ''tool'' with which we can force them to succeed, since an opposition by Political capacity from opposition parties dismally failed to challenge the ANC. We need a ''dog'' through the legislation that can ''bark''/compel ''our'' beloved ANC comrades to do their work, a ''legislation'' will be a perfect temporary measure until we transform our ANC to take hit of social and economic interests of ''our'' poor, we cannot leave them with high salaries but not protect them in a perpetual manner by the time the inflation struck them again. Than you( KafreeMoneykey) suggests that they should die again for higher salaries once more, no, no, no we need to protect them in advance!?

ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
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I pray for the end, as this world stinks!
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SuiGeneris

Posted 281 days ago
Don't worry, don't despair, zuma did cut his visit to Mozambique short and he is on his way to Rustenburg to sort out the problem and make things right, as always !

He is quite capable to do these things - After the fact, that is !

Gormogon1

Posted 281 days ago
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By a process of deduction, one quickly realises that these mineworkers were not interested in negotiations but decided to rather act as savages, which certainly led police to have no other alternative but to use live ammunition.

They had already hacked ten people to death. They shot and killed two policemen. They hacked two security guards to death and set their car alight with them in it. They are demanding a 300% increase in salary, which by any means, is way beyond what any sane company could give or afford. They were unrealistic in their demands and were clearly looking for a fight. They are militant, and seemingly well organised and ready to kill anyone. In my view, they got what they deserved.
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SecretVoice

Posted 281 days ago
I agree with you 100%. These so called deprived union members have very little going on between their ears. They are literally mileniums behind in development and thus they still behave like people from a totally different species. From where I sit I see no real attempt to start the development process so a thousand years from now they will still be savages.

carel.steenekamp

Posted 281 days ago
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I wonder if the reporters are aware of the power of spelling and punctuation:

"Kill us too, please, abelungu [whites]." OR "Kill us to please abelungu [whites]."

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cANCerSurvivor

Posted 281 days ago
That... is... HECTIC!
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
You got it right, it is "Kill us to please abelungu [whites]."
And may you also know that the people are well aware that they have been sold out by Mandela in 1994. No matter what BS they are selling, the people have been duped.

And now what is going to happen, a civil war on the horizon. Who will be blamed, the ANC elite of course, and the real culprits are hidden. These corrupt hidden elite(using the ANC) have already planned all of this, as it happened before in African countries. Regrettably too many are to slow in accepting this fact. History repeating itself in SA.

boy1466

Posted 281 days ago
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President Zuma that useless man with many wifes is to be bleme. He is in Zimbabwe telling them what to do. Your country is in fire and you are saying sadness but you give order. We dont want you again looser. All the people who support you before taking power you have change. Sign for the monsters to kill Gadhafi then you want to change power in Zimbabwe also your time is over Zuma go back to your village.
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manga2

Posted 281 days ago
Really? Get over yourself and face the true facts of life

Both Madiba and his Deputy, Mbeki were out of country when Acting President Buthelezi commanded our army to invade Lesotho.

These things happen. It likes returning home from work to find your family has perished from a stupid domestic incident.

manga2

Posted 281 days ago
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The protesting miners honestly thought they were just re-enacting the historical Battle of Isandlwana. On the other hand, the police were intent on avenging the death of the two policemen who were killed earlier, alledgedly by the striking miners.

The actions of both the miners and the police just show that Mandela and co's reconciliation efforts did not include rehabilitation. Those miners were intent on killing the police yesterday: and that's a fact. The police responded in kind.

SuiGeneris

Posted 281 days ago
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This has happened before in1922.

150 White miners were killed.

The enemy in 1922 were striking white miners, who clashed with the government of General Jan Smuts in a terrifying confrontation that brought bombs and shells raining down on Johannesburg, killing about 150 people.

It's hard to imagine that 80 years ago Johannesburg was at war: planes were dropping bombs on Fordsburg, several buildings in Brixton were shelled, commandos of mineworkers were marching through central Johannesburg. Trains lines were dynamited, and civilians were attacking police stations and disarming police officers and taking them prisoner.

This was the 1922 mineworkers strike and it lasted almost three months before it was quelled, but not before martial law was declared.

Wiseguy

Posted 281 days ago
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1)Totally unacceptable, disgusting and I have no doubt could have been avoided if the mines management had engaged with the miners constructively in meaningful discussions as requested!!
2)Every police officer and miner involved MUST be given appropriate post-traumatic counselling with follow up care!!
3)The politics behind this disaster and ANOTHER large blot on our ANC givernments human rights record MUST come out and those responsible be held accoutable.....and I'm not reffering to those poor cops who pulled the trigger to save their life from those very angry miners.
My understanding of the facts leading up to this is as follows......please correct me if you disagree:
The Association of Mineworkers and Construction Union starts when its current leadership falls out with NUM. AMCU starts getting more and more support from the miners at this Lonmins mine, while NUM membership drops and drops. AMCU becomes the dominant union at this mine. AMCU and NUM relationshipo becomes more and more strained......AMCU feels victimised and askes for assistance.....nothing happens.....more victimization.....it members then organise an illegal strike as there members are being seriously targeted and they want it to END!!! People are killed due to anger, fear and victimisation without any solution in sight! Government steps in, in an attempt to resolve this..........government that is placed there by its electorate which would include COSATU(NUM being its largest affiliate)??

This could have been avoided people.....it really could have! It is a sad day for ALL citizens of this country.....very sad indeed, and we should all hang our heads in shame!

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Wiseguy

Posted 281 days ago
2)Every police officer and miner involved MUST be given appropriate post-traumatic counselling with follow up care!! ........and all expenses incurred sent to the Lonmin management!

Condolences to all who have lost their loved ones!!

KafreeMoneykey

Posted 281 days ago
Avatar
How is a dispute between a privately owned company which is listed in the London Stock Exchange and the Unions suddenly becomes an ANC problem? How is it possible that the deadlock within Lonmin and the two Unions suddenly becomes an ANC problem?

The fact is that Lonmin is remunerating their miners way below the norm as compared to other mining companies like IMPLATS, ANGLO PLATS, and RBH as per the reports last night. There is no underground miner in the other companies who earns R4000 per month. That is why strikes of this nature were never experienced by these companies, they pay their employees fair salaries.

The government would have acted in an irresponsible manner should they have failed to deploy police to the site. They deployed the police to protect both Lonmin and the Unions, which is their responsibility. Even if the DA or FF+ or IF was in government the police would have most likely acted in the same manner especially after their colleagues were murdered yesterday. The root cause of all this mess starts from Lonmin and it was made worse by lack of leadership demonstrated by the Unions.

To those who think under the DA government the outcomes were going to be different, shame on you for cheap politiking. I know that the only worry by Edward Haslam
CEO (London), John Robinson Finance Director (London), and Peter Ledger Managing Director(SA) is the share price! They are so good that their incompetence is blamed on the ANC...
Avatar

SuiGeneris

Posted 281 days ago
''''''''The fact is that Lonmin is remunerating their miners way below the norm as compared to other mining companies like IMPLATS, ANGLO PLATS, and RBH......''''''''

You do not say how much these companies pay their miners, so one cannot make a comparison and form an opinion.
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KafreeMoneykey

Posted 281 days ago
@SuiGeneris...There is this concept called "thin slicing" where you do not have to have proof on the table to make a conclusion. Fact is that Anglo Platinum has never had a strike of this nature and one can deduce that they are doing something very right. I do not know what is your point really...
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RSA.MommaCyndi

Posted 281 days ago
This has nothing to do with Lonmin. They are just the playing field. This is to do with a union turf war.
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Krustululu

Posted 281 days ago
This Sui Genesis character is stupid.
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Wiseguy

Posted 281 days ago
@Kafree....."How is a dispute between a privately owned company which is listed in the London Stock Exchange and the Unions suddenly becomes an ANC problem?".......as Government/ruling party of the day......the moment they sent in the police to play hard ball(with orders to shoot to kill if confronted/attacked)........now we have many dead miners/fathers/bread winners....who will leave behind orphans and widows! It IS now the Governments(ANC's) problem.......and as NUM is one of there large affiliated unions......a pretty serious one at that!!

As Sharpville became a loose around the NP's neck, this DISASTER will become a noose around the ANC's neck!!......care of NUM??

I am not absolving the Lonmin management.......but these deaths cannot be placed at the foot of management......only at the foot of the ruling party who sent in those police with there orders!
The government of the day should have put their foot down and insisted Lonmin management come forward with agreeable solutions, or face the consequances, e.g. lose their license, face legal proceedings ect ect........now it is TOO LATE!

FFFFFFFF@@@@@@@@@@@@@CCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK !!!!
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SuiGeneris

Posted 281 days ago
@ Krustululu

Calling me stupid......? I never make assumptions ! - In my book, the only way to derive at an objective conclusion, is to work with the facts....Not thumb sucking !

Calling me stupid, but you cant even get my name right, stupid !

Whyetfull

Posted 281 days ago
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The valorisation of violence in South Africa is disturbing. Our people have been conditioned to believe that you can only get your way if you violently impose yourself on the other or whoever you are opposing. The context of this violence is much deeper than the so-called disaffection with the ANC's failure to perform. The culture of public violence in South Africa started with colonialism, culminating with apartheid, and now the culture is deeply entrenched in the mind sof our people. There is this cheap quest for heroism - and violence is seen as a vehicle to achieve this. As to our leaders, they are really failing us. The unions and mine management must take responsibility. The same goes to invisible agitaters on the ground.
This is extremely sad for the image of our beloved country. Our leaders are always reactionary. Thye wait for things to collapse first before they act...Extremely sad.

JanssenS

Posted 281 days ago
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I cannot believe nobody saw this coming after what happened last week.
Now everyone is calling for an investigation into "who is responsible"?
Start at the top!

BokFan

Posted 281 days ago
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Such people are ungovernable. They are at war with society and its laws, processes and procedures. They assert their right to acquire that which they cannot earn ,their right to claim the unclaimable and to demand the restoration of rights and privileges that never existed.

And they will kill and die for these things.

Such people are ungovernable and therefore cannot govern.

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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
What are you? You cannot be human. People just died and you talk about laws and procedures. Jeez, you people make me sick with your coldness!
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staren

Posted 281 days ago
@ILoveTheTruth

those rules and procedures are what govern the country - its called the LAW.

Those same people were part of mob that was responsible for the death of 10 other people. And please dont forget that this was all over a turf war between the NUM and AMCU, not over political or religious freedoms.... Its not like the police acted callously or maliciously - they were forced to try restore order.

Do yourself a favour and watch the Al Jazeera footage on news24 - the miners literally attacked the police line whilst armed with handguns, panga's and machetes (the handguns you can clearly see being recovered). No, this has everything to do with rules and procedures, and unfortunately these miners had absolutely no regard for them, or the 10 others who paid with their lives... and an attack on the Police, is in many ways, an attack on us and the rest of society as well...

But having said that, its still a tragic day for South Africa, and you have to feel for the families of the miners... this should never have happened.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
Look, don't tell me about the laws that your predecessors forced on the world. Your laws only protect the rights of Europeans to plunder and pillage as they please. Take your maritime laws back to Europe and shove it. It is these laws that made it possible for Europeans to rape the world.

In your effin book, your laws are more important than human lives, so scr3w you and your self righteous attitude. You murderous attitudes will destroy this world.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
"and an attack on the Police, is in many ways, an attack on us and the rest of society as well... "

maybe you mean white society, as the police don't represent or protect the majority of the nation. they are the attack dogs of the elite and are employed to keep them safe. Anything else is a made up lie and BS.
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staren

Posted 281 days ago
These arent the laws that my predecessors forced on the land, these are the laws that were passed by OUR democratically elected government and signed into effect by the ANC led government - google "criminal procedure act" - so please stop acting like a petulant, emotional child with a chip on your block and evaluate things based on facts, not your emotions or grievances with past injustices or your obvious hatred for whites.

What, do think that murder is a criminal offence or the police's right to defended themselves is because of some law the Nats passed? wake up, and stop confusing past injustices and the effects thereof with present lawlessness - they are 2 very fundamentally different things.
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staren

Posted 281 days ago
The attack dogs of the elite??

Really, and who are the elite at present? The ANC and its cadres.

And who voted the ANC to power? The majority of the country.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
"please stop acting like a petulant, emotional child with a chip on your block and evaluate things based on facts, not your emotions or grievances with past injustices or your obvious hatred for whites. "

go tell that to your children, as for my hatred for whites as you put it, I dont hate them, i just dislike them very much, cause they are arrogant, thieving and even today still justify their corrupt actions of the past and present. so dont you give me lessons. you have no right and background to do so. go teach your children wrong.

"wake up, and stop confusing past injustices and the effects thereof with present lawlessness "

does this include the present thievery of your people? you know very well that all the wealth is still in their hands, that is why people like you have no remorse when blacks get killed for fighting for their rights. people like you sit back, steal the wealth and then criticize the local in inhabitants. i think you are really the monsters that destroyed mars and are now doing the same here. what are you wearing under that white skin? a hard reptilian shell perhaps.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
"Really, and who are the elite at present? The ANC and its cadres.

And who voted the ANC to power? The majority of the country."

You are white and know very well that the ANC are puppets and scapegoats of their white masters. Go spread your deceit someplace else, maybe on Mars.
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staren

Posted 281 days ago
Again, just an emotional rant.

There no doubt that the miners have valid and serious grievances and theres no doubt their are still huge inequalities in this country, and theres no doubt that this violence stems from those inequalities, but you just cant seem to get it in your head that the people who were killed, were killed in the process of attacking the police and instigating and perpetrating violence.

Is there something about that fact that you cant grasp or cant understand?

All you seem to care about is that fact that black people were killed, yet you completely ignore the reasons, how or why, or the crimes they perpetrated, the background behind it and instead sidestep the issue with more rants about the thievery of white people and other drivel about white puppetmasters (really?? seriously?? well shoot, I'd better tell the rest of the white folk cause we've obviously missed a trick these last 18 years), goblins, mars, tokoloshes and the bogey man...

Not once have you actually addressed any of the immediate facts of the matter that I raised - everything for you is just about what the whites did in the past as if that somehow excuses murder and mayhem and the killing of cops... and no doubt your reply will be something to do with whites and mars, and nothing about the actual issue...

Ok, whatever makes you feel better.

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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
@staren

Continue convincing yourself that your right, Typical.

What issues did you raise? That the miners had machetes, pangas and handguns? Did they fire on the police first or did the police fire first? In my view the police fired first, right. You are saying that anyone can then fire on a person just because they are armed and then call it self-defense. Just because they are police does not give them the right to fire on people cause they think they are under threat. They have to adhere to the law just as the ordinary citizen.

What other points did you raise? Oh yes, rules and democracy. Go sell your BS someplace else, as we know well enough that democracy is not equal to freedom. As long as the country is still held hostage by the rich elite, ie, oppenheimers ,ruperts, etc., the ordinary citizen has no change of making a decent living in the land of their ancestors.

It is clear for everyone to see, that if you look worldwide, that most of the riches, especially of third world countries are in the hands of these greedy war-mongers. Well, because they are mostly white, people like you tend to defend them and act as if this planet is yours by right. There is no way in my book that you can defend your past and present. Today you want to blame everything that goes wrong on the ANC. I am not defending them. My point is what are the previously advantaged doing to level the playing field. Absolutely nothing I tell you. They still abuse their positions of power and material excess.

So please, go sell your propaganda elsewhere, as I know enough about the past and the present to draw my own conclusions.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
And yes, I have emotions and murder and cover-ups gets me emotional. It is what makes me human and not a Martian. Get it, get it, are you sure you get it?
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staren

Posted 281 days ago
So basically what you're saying is that because of past injustices and current inequalities and the desperation they face, the miners should be excused for their actions, breaking the law, and the violence and the murder of innocents... so i.e basically those who weren't affected by past injustices or current inequalities can do and act as they please?

And yes the law (that was signed into power by the ANC) allows for the police to shoot if they consider themselves or others to be under immediate threat.

Do yourself a favour and go watch the full al jazeera clip on news24... then try and remember that 10 people were killed by those same rampaging miners, one of which was a policeman who was hacked to death (what about their rights? are you grieving for them?)...

And then go and have yourself a good, safe weekend - I think theres been more than enough heartbreak and sadness for one week...

news24.com/Multimedia/South-Africa/Lonmin-mine-shoot-out-footage-20120816
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
"So basically what you're saying is that because of past injustices and current inequalities and the desperation they face, the miners should be excused for their actions, breaking the law, and the violence and the murder of innocents... so i.e basically those who weren't affected by past injustices or current inequalities can do and act as they please? "

Uh, now where did I say that? You trying to twist what I am saying? If you bother to understand others maybe you will stop misinterpreting words. Oh, but I am of colour so you won't bother, cause I am stupidado in your eyes.

But seriously, if you really want to understand what i am saying, I will spell it out. I am saying that the whole system of oppression under the guise of capitalism must be done away with. Ooh, now you are probably going to defend capitalism which made you and your ilk rich. Yes, I have read the book Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, which describes how the rich thinks to justify their wealth. I have also read To Kill a Mockingbird, which says put yourself in someone else's shoes before you judge them.

You can have the last word after this as I am signing out, and have a nice weekend too.

donorfatigued

Posted 281 days ago
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Men with pangas determined to hack people to death may only be dealt with in this manner and I applaud the police for the action they were forced to take and from which they did not shrink.

Next time perhaps they will go for the record and beat the 60+ that were mown down at Sharpeville - oh, how the ANC is seeing it's stinking chickens of violence and entitlement aggravated by the utter leadership and integrity vacuum today, coming home to roost!
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
And you are most probably a white racist that has no feelings for others if they are not white. You make me sick!
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SuiGeneris

Posted 281 days ago
Ilovethetruth

''''''''''And you are most probably a white racist that has no feelings for others if they are not white. You make me sick !''''''''

Typical to throw in the race card !

If one come with violent intentions, regardless of your race, then expect and be prepared to die violently !
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
@Sui

Are you from Mars? Please go back there.
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Whyetfull

Posted 281 days ago
'typical to thow in a race card'

I think you invited it dude...
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
almost as if you people never throw the race card yourselves. lol, you abuse people of colour on a daily basis. you discriminate only on the basis of colour. if you disagree, then i will probably have to show you the facts, but hopefully you are intelligent enough to just understand this.

BazilSolomon

Posted 281 days ago
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My prayers for all the families involved. South Africa 'cry the beloved country' . Is this the repeat of the June 16th soweto massacre?, August 16th Mining Massacre - uncanny as the apartheid system did the same based on skin colour but now it is divide the poor and rich under the new system. South Africa fought for Freedom, the fight for Dignity and Respect for Human Life has now only just begun - Hope.
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ILoveTheTruth

Posted 281 days ago
Yes Basil, I agree and as much as I dislike the ANC, they are only the scapegoats for the white minority who still controls the wealth of this nation. People must wake up.

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 281 days ago
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Its fascinating how Zuma bureaucrats have sprung into action to trumpet his party's "pity" and excuses for this massacre. We have had violence during strikes, even with the ANC-allied unions, but without such a massacre of human life. Ironically, their call for 'investigation' comes at a time when numerous 'investigations' have yielded no results in Angie's massacre of our children intellect. We should pat ourselves on the back, for getting kick on the chin, and coming back for more, for almost twenty years. Even apartheid strikes do not come any nearer this mowing down of about 50 poor workers striking for a living wage.

ODIN_EXPAT

Posted 281 days ago
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My heart bleeds for my fellow South Africans that have been butchered. When will our country know peace.....when? My prayers to the family of the martyrs.

This is the begining of the South African uprising against a corrupt, criminal and elitist black government who care not for the fellow man.

ANC wants to be in bed with Cosatu and Big Business equals conflict of interest. ANC this blood is on your hands!!!!

Police commisioner should be sacked. Cannot use overwhelming violent force like this.

Both these unions should be suspended and investigated for inciting violence. There is no place for weapons of any kind at a protest.

This is what happens when the ANC government uses and condones use of violent words in their songs and at elections. Society has engrained violence as it's primary dispute resolution mechanism.

SA needs to change their value system by increased education teaching people how to be heard without the need for violence. How much has the ANC invested in education in comparison to Defence spending!!!!!!!!
ANC you are guilty of a human rights violations by not caring for your people and enriching yourselves at their expense.

ngangolwandlekazamkhaya

Posted 281 days ago
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don't just represent educate, this also goes for any organisation