Andrea ‘Mama J’ Johnson told Idac prosecutor to run from Madlanga inquiry

Former Investigating Directorate Against Corruption (Idac) head advocate Andrea Johnson advised prosecutor Drushantha Ramsamy to skip the country when the Madlanga commission of inquiry calls her to testify.

An almost 12-minute telephonic recording was played before the inquiry in which a frustrated Johnson tells Ramsamy they need to orchestrate a way for the prosecutor not to appear before the inquiry.

“If they call you, you leave the country. Whether we like it or not they’re going to make our names sh*t anyway. You can just see. Remember he [Mbuyiseli Madlanga] is a judge. He’ll make a comment: ‘This is basic law 101. I’m surprised you don’t know it, yet you have 30 years’ experience.’

“And he makes faces, they laugh with each other while you’re still answering. It’s so unprofessional. We’ll see what we are all going to do, but it’s just going to be a sh*t show,” the former Idac head said.

Johnson, who Ramsamy affectionately referred to as “Mama J”, said she would call the prosecutor at a later stage to devise a plan on how Ramsamy could avoid appearing before the commission.

“They’ve put me through the test on the [crime intelligence head Lt-Gen Dumisani] Khumalo matter. I think they’re going to call you. We need to figure out a way how you don’t go.”

Ramsamy revealed this on Thursday when she appeared before the commission investigating interference in the criminal justice system.

On July 22 the inquiry asked Johnson to provide clarity on officials being investigated by Idac and where the list came from. She said she did not know who had the list and called Ramsamy for assistance.

Ramsamy said when she received the call from Johnson, she asked her where the document had emanated from.

Johnson said: “They said to me I must tell them step-by-step. You know the annexures that have all the suspects. Annexure A, it has all the suspects. When you look at section 28 (13), you could only make out Khumalo, maybe [Maj-Gen Nasipho] Madodo and [Maj-Gen Philani] Lushaba. Where did you get all the other names from?”

Ramsamy replied she got the information from Johnson.

Johnson said in the recording that she did not know where she got the name on the section 28 (13) document, but Ramsamy insisted she got it from her.

“I remember distinctly because I put it in my email. I received the piece of paper with handwriting and it was the suspects written on there. You explained to me that the suspects were [discussed] after a dinner with [MP] Fadiel [Adams], and that’s how the list came about.”

During Johnson’s six-day cross-examination at the inquiry, Ramsamy said she felt she had been thrown under the bus and needed to clear her name.

During her testimony, Johnson shifted blame to Ramsamy to account for the directorate’s actions in controversial crime intelligence investigations.

“Advocate Johnson told many untruths about me and my involvement in what is now known as the [Brig Dineo] Mokwele case. She did not disclose that I raised concerns from the outset and repeatedly thereafter, which concerns I will deal with in detail,” Ramsamy said.

In the recording, Johnson accepts Ramsamy could have possibly received the list from her, but said she does not know where she got the section 28 (13) document.

She said: “I’m very confused because they need to know tomorrow where did I get the names. I need to understand where did I get those names. It’s fine if you say you got it from me, but I don’t know where I got it from.”

Idac chief investigator Dylan Perumal, who has since been suspended, is mentioned in the recording as being in the know about the matter.

“What you told me is that Dylan obtained it after consultation with Fadiel. That is my understanding.

“Ask Dylan to check because there is an email between him, you and I about the names and the documents that were slotted under Fadiel’s door. There was a chain email between us. He should remember.”

On Thursday justice minister Mmamoloko Kubayi announced the suspensions of Perumal and senior Idac investigators Brian Padayachee and Suneel Bellochun.

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