‘You must grow up. Do not be cheeky’: Mpofu turns the tables on Gordhan

Tensions flared at the state capture commission on Monday, where public enterprises minister Pravin Gordhan was accused of racism, belittling black people and arrogance.

The accusations, all vehemently denied, came as Dali Mpofu SC took on Gordhan on behalf of his client, former Sars boss Tom Moyane. Mpofu was cross-examining Gordhan, who he described as hostile towards Moyane, after the minister’s earlier testimony at the commission.

Mpofu said Gordhan was racist towards Moyane and African people in general.

Other elements of his hostility, said Mpofu, included arrogance towards Moyane and petty jealousy regarding Moyane’s role at Sars.

Mpofu said some of the most crass forms of racism included calling people monkeys or baboons, but that other forms included belittling, particularly African people, by calling them “boy or girl”.

“That form of belittling is the Pravin Gordhan type of racism. That racism goes to attacking the dignity of the person,” Mpofu said.

Gordhan denied any form or racism or racist behaviour.

Mpofu persisted, saying racism took many forms, some of which were only understood by the victim. Gordhan said none of his behaviour could be equated to racism.

Mpofu produced the transcript of a March 10 2015 recording in which he said a conversation between Gordhan and Moyane showed the minister shouting at Moyane about a statement made about a judge.

According to the transcript, Moyane asked Gordhan: “Why should I keep quiet when he makes those blasphemous statements about us?”

Gordhan replied: “I just told you, you are a public servant, you are not God.”

Moyane replied: “I think, sir, you should also treat me with respect. You are shouting at me.”

Gordhan later said: “No, man, grow up, man. Grow up, man.”

Moyane replied: “You should also grow up, sir.”

Gordhan said: “I beg your pardon. Who are you talking to?”

Gordhan also said, according to the transcript, that Moyane was “cheeky”.

Gordhan told the commission on Monday that the interaction concerned Moyane’s criticism of a judge. He said he wanted an assurance from Moyane that he would stop criticising the judge, but that assurance was not forthcoming.

“I reject with absolute contempt any suggestion that there is any racism involved in my interactions. That word ‘cheeky’ is about attitude, not the persona.”

Mpofu said in the South African context, if a person tells a man in his 50s and 60s to “grow up”, it is belittling and a sign of racism.

“I reject your understanding,” Gordhan said.

Mpofu asked whether it was acceptable to shout at a person and say “grow up”.

Gordhan said in this particular context Moyane did not want to provide a straightforward answer that he would not attack the judge.

Mpofu asked whether Moyane’s “defiance” gave Gordhan the right to treat him like a child by telling him to grow up.

I was merely saying to him, ‘be responsible’. I said you cannot go around attacking a judge through a spokesperson.

—  Public enterprises minister Pravin Gordhan

“I was merely saying to him, ‘be responsible’. I said you cannot go around attacking a judge through a spokesperson,” Gordhan said.

“You must grow up, Mr Gordhan,” said Mpofu. “Do not be cheeky. How does that feel? I can tell you how it feels for people like me. You must never again belittle African people the way you did in this conversation by telling them to grow up and they are cheeky. You must not do it, OK?”

During earlier cross-examination Gordhan said he believed Moyane’s personal goals while he was commissioner included the advancement of the state capture project.

“I stand by the fact that Mr Moyane was advancing state capture and one of his activities was laying the complaint,” Gordhan said.

He was referring to a criminal complaint laid by Moyane against Gordhan relating to the early pension payout of former Sars deputy commissioner Ivan Pillay. The NPA charged Gordhan in 2016, but later withdrew the case.

In his evidence before the commission last year, Gordhan accused Moyane of acting maliciously when he laid charges against him and said this was part of advancing state capture.

Mpofu said the hostility towards Moyane was motivated by Gordhan’s desire to deflect from his own involvement in state capture and corruption.

“He says it was because he blew the whistle on the mess or trail of illegal activities and corrupt activities that you left behind at Sars, including the issue of the rogue unit and the alleged early retirement of Mr Pillay.”

Gordhan denied these accusations.

“Let me emphatically say that all of those assertions have no foundation whatsoever. To now throw around notions such as racism and my alleged involvement in corruption is part of the fake news narrative. I emphatically deny all of these assertions,” he said.

Gordhan asked why he should be jealous of Moyane. He also denied the charge of racism and said “since joining the congress [ANC] movement ... I am emphatically a non-racialist and my record proves that, of course”.

On the Pillay issue, Gordhan said nothing illegal took place.

“Effectively you are denying you are an arrogant, self-opinionated, jealous racist who is corrupt and has a tendency to harm whistle-blowers who report on your unlawful activities. You deny that?” Mpofu asked.

“Absolutely,” Gordhan said.

Mpofu said Moyane will back up his accusations with evidence when he testifies.