Did you know it was so bad?
It would have been impossible for us to know. Now that the report is out, it's an issue that concerns us. But we are proud that the country is competing in this kind of study rather than shying away.
How can you be proud when we're coming stone last?
We're proud that we're competing rather than shying away. Only three countries in Africa competed.
Shouldn't you know what's going on in your classrooms?
If you look, you can see that from the last study to this one we went backwards, rather than going forward, and that is the reason we are surprised.
Shouldn't you be doing regular assessments?
We do. Annual assessments. But those assessments unfortunately were challenged by teacher unions, and in the absence of those assessments it was very difficult for us to track progress.
So until this report you didn't know how bad the situation was?
We know, because we have our own assessment in Gauteng, where we have exams every quarter.
What is your assessment telling you?
If you pull Gauteng and treat it as a country, it will be above the achievement of South Africa.
What are your numbers?
Our numbers are far better.
What are your numbers?
I don't have the exact figures now, but they're far above the average of the country.
What are your Grade 4 literacy numbers?
Gauteng is the only province that has all the languages ...
What is your Grade 4 literacy level?
I can assure you that we're much better than other provinces.
Do you accept you still have a serious problem?
Yes. That is why we've got a campaign that allows children every week for 30 minutes to read and write so that we can test their knowledge.
Have you assessed the results of this campaign?
That is why we are saying we are taken aback after such a successful campaign that the country is still performing at this level. But our intention was not to perform good overnight. We remain on course to reach the National Development Plan targets by 2030.
According to this report our literacy rate is going backwards?
We need to improve literacy. It is our core mandate and we'll be the first to be worried if that mandate is not achieved. And we know why it is not [being] achieved.
Because you're using teachers who can't teach?
It's a combination of many things. But we don't want to hide behind the broom and say that we don't have a problem. We do have a problem.
Do you know how to fix it?
We know. We really do. We have to ensure that our libraries are functional ...
Before that you have to ensure the children can read, don't you?
We have to ensure that the children are in class first.
Why is this so difficult?
It is affected by many social problems...