Should the Department of Health have responded sooner?
This is what I have been asking. This is the worst documented listeriosis outbreak in the world. How did we get here? 
How did we?
One of the graphs the National Institute of Communicable Diseases has, shows that they were logging already in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 60 to 80 cases of listeriosis per annum. If you look at how an outbreak is defined in the rest of the world, we have had a listeriosis outbreak since 2013. And nobody has known about it until December 5 2017, when it went public.
Should health inspectors have picked this up?
The problem with our health inspection is that the Department of Health has very little say in the enforcement of the regulations in the provinces and municipalities.
Do we have enough health inspectors?
Years ago, when our population was eight million less than today, the World Health Organisation put out a document saying we need at least 5,000 health inspectors. My understanding is that we have between 2,000 and 2,500.What about creating public awareness?
This is part and parcel of what a national authority should do that has the mandate to deal with food safety and food hygiene matters. Other governments put out an enormous amount of information, so when a listeriosis outbreak occurs there is an incredible awareness.
So this is a critical aspect?
Absolutely critical. I cannot tell you how disappointed I've become about the way government is communicating to the consumer. Consumers are so confused. They don't know what's going on.
Not so easy in a developing country?
That is why a communication plan is needed so that you reach people in rural areas via radio or social media. A lot of people even in rural areas have social media platforms.
Could this have been avoided if there was an intervention earlier?
Most likely. Another point is that listeriosis was not a notifiable disease in South Africa until December 15 last year.What difference would it have made?
There would have been a lot more action taken a lot earlier. The minister of health only went public on December 5 when we already had 550 cases and 36 deaths. That's a massive number of confirmed cases and deaths already.
And if you think the National Institute of Communicable Diseases was tracking this particular outbreak from January 1 2017, it was only 11 months later that the Department of Health went public with this.
What about the role of Tiger Brands?
I can't comment on that.
What about industry safety protocols?
Most companies in South Africa follow international best practices.
If they're following international best practice, shouldn't they pick this up?
That could be part of the problem.
That they're not following international best practice?
I don't know what systems they used to ensure that the product that is coming out on the other side is safe.
If they followed international best practice should this have happened?
I can't comment on that.Is it avoidable?
Up to a point. In spite of international best practice there are still listeriosis outbreaks in other countries.
Not with 180-plus people dying?
Exactly...