Cash-in-transit heists are getting more brazen and the police are floundering. Chris Barron asked the chairman of the police oversight committee, Francois Beukman...
Are the police out of their depth?
Well, in the first instance there has been a major increase in violent crime.
This is why I ask if they're out of their depth?
No, I don't think so.
So why have they lost control?
I don't think they've lost control.
Would criminals mount the kind of military operation in broad daylight we saw in Boksburg if the police were in control?
It's well-organised, well-trained people who are launching these heists.
Who seem to own the streets and have no fear of the police?
They don't fear the cop on the beat or normal police in a patrol vehicle, definitely not.
Then we're sitting with a crisis, surely?
Well, let's say it's a totally unacceptable situation, it's just not on.
How did we get here?
One reason is the issue of leadership. We've had two acting commissioners and now we have got a permanent one. The issue of stability in your police environment is critical. So they must focus now on the core business of policing. The first issue is crime intelligence.
Why isn't the crime intelligence unit doing its job?
They've been without a permanent head for the past six years. There were 12 or 13 acting heads. There's no stability in such an environment and you don't focus on your core business. So your network operations and ability to have informers is clearly not on par. So you're not infiltrating syndicates.
Instead, the syndicates have infiltrated the police?
Of course there are corrupt elements in SAPS and in CI. And this is because your vetting regime is currently not effective.
Isn't it your job to exercise oversight and hold the police to account?
From our side we're exerting the necessary pressure and holding them to account. But the reality is that vetting is done by CI, which is understaffed.
Wasn't parliament told that 27 police officers in CI have criminal records?
Yes, it's totally untenable. That's supposed to be an elite unit where people are above board and subscribe to the highest ethical standards and actually police the police.
If criminals are inside CI then the police don't have a chance against crime syndicates, do they?
No. But you have now at least a capable person leading CI with a lot of experience, and a national commissioner who can give direction. Because with an organisation like the police, if there is uncertainty about direction and command and control, things fall apart. That's why we've been saying all along: "You must implement the National Development Plan." One of its key recommendations is still on the table.
Which is?
The National Policing Board, which will set the standards for recruitment and selection and promotion. If you don't have objective, scientific criteria, the best people won't get to the management positions...