Do we know how many schools still have pit toilets?
We know that at least 4,000 still have pit latrines, as we'd classify them.
So far this year the minister and department have come up with three wildly different numbers. Do they have a clue how bad the problem is?
One of the reasons for poor delivery in addressing the infrastructure backlog is exactly that. There isn't a solid database with good statistics that reflect how many schools there are and how many still have pit latrines. Is there any hope of eradicating the problem without reliable data?
Absolutely not. This is why part of our soft action at Cyril Ramaphosa's SAFE (Sanitation Appropriate For Education) initiative launch was to say that throwing money at the problem, even though we encourage the private sector and government to work together in addressing these key issues, is so bad when people don't have clear numbers of where priority schools are.
The Bhisho high court ruled in July that the department was obliged to implement its norms and standards for school infrastructure. Is that likely to make any difference?
The ruling compelled different departments to work together to address the backlog of school infrastructure and the sanitation crisis, but on the day of the launch of the SAFE initiative we got an appeal to the judgment.
Which makes a nonsense of the initiative, surely?
Absolutely. The minister appealed the judgment at the Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) and the Constitutional Court, which came back to Equal Education two weeks ago to say they've thrown out even considering hearing that appeal.
So where does that leave us?
It means if the appeal doesn't go through in the SCA as well, the Bhisho judgment will hold. In the past, the excuses the department would give is that they don't have the finance or capacity to eradicate inappropriate school infrastructure.
Now the court has ruled that such excuses are unlawful?
Yes. It's about the will and capacity of the minister and her department to carry out what's in the norms and standards for infrastructure.
Is it a lack of capacity or of political will?
It's a capacity issue that the department is not willing to fess up to, but very much a lack of political will as well. There isn't an urgency around fixing these schools unless there's a huge media and public outcry around someone's death.
So the court ruling hasn't changed the attitude much at all?
Absolutely not. Outside hosting SAFE initiative launches and broad-based seminars, nothing's actually happening on the ground.
As you say, the department blames a lack of money?
The budget for the [department of basic education's] infrastructure programme has been cut, but even with the money that existed in the previous financial year, provinces like the Eastern Cape were sending back about R530m of unspent infrastructure-allocated finance. This is provincial departments and the national conditional grant. The accelerated school infrastructure initiative programme, for example, has underspent by over R1.288bn...