So many questions on legalising rhino horn trade

The Department of Environmental Affairs has gazetted draft regulations to allow trade in rhino horn domestically and for export. Chris Barron asked Thea Carroll, chief director of biodiversity planning and management for the department . . .

Why didn't the government submit a legal horn trade proposal at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species conference last year?

I think that was communicated by the minister so you can go and look at the media releases.

Wasn't that a bit deceitful if this is what you intended doing?

No. That was about whether we should introduce a commercial trade in rhino horn. The decision was that a commercial trade in rhino horn (banned by Cites) will not be introduced.

What's the difference between that and allowing trade for personal use as per the draft regulations?

It's different in terms of how it is regulated and the restrictions associated with it.

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Will you be able to enforce the distinction?

Yes. There are [a long list of] requirements that will have to be met.

Do you have the capacity to monitor all of them?

Yes. We've been building capacity to address illegal trade in rhino horn with the different agencies in South Africa. That includes training customs officials in terms of detection and matters related to illegal trade...

Wouldn't it be easier to maintain the ban on all trade in rhino horn and make it work?

We've been implementing that ...

Haven't you in effect given up?

Do you want to interview me or have you already made your story? Because you're interrupting me and I can't even get a response out. It's unfair.

Please carry on.

I don't even know what question I'm supposed to be responding to now.

Won't it be difficult to monitor whether horn is legal or illegal?

No. We already have systems in place and we've been putting them in place for a long time to assist us in terms of what is happening with rhino horn in the country. The system is in place for us to verify if the horn has been legally acquired ...

How?

Because you need to have a permit to possess a rhino horn. In addition, we introduce marking, DNA sampling, all of those things must be in place. If we cannot verify that a horn is legally acquired then we are not going to authorise the export of those rhino horns.

What is the intention of allowing any trade in rhino horn at all?

I think you're missing the point. It is to allow for domestic trade in rhino horn and to regulate that trade in rhino horn. It provides for a person who owns a farm with rhino to take those horns out if he wants to. If all the requirements can be met.

block_quotes_start We have extensive programmes to monitor illegal killing of elephants. Based on that you will see that the main problem we have in terms of poaching is areas where you have intense poverty block_quotes_end

Is the intention to stop poaching?

The intention is to ensure that we conserve our rhinos in the wild.

In other words, to stop poaching?

Yes. And to provide incentives for people to keep rhino and to look after them and continue to conserve them.

How will this stop poaching?

Not only one intervention will stop poaching. The government has implemented a wide variety of interventions to address poaching. We've always said that we need to address a number of concerns.

Do these concerns include an effective memorandum of understanding with Mozambique?

We have a memorandum of understanding with Mozambique.

Will you get them to improve their enforcement of wildlife laws?

I think there has been significant improvement from their side.

So why is poaching still on the increase?

Are you interviewing me on the draft regulations or on something else?

Does experience suggest that creating a legal market for rhino horn will reduce poaching?

There are examples where a well-regulated legal market has in fact contributed to the conservation...

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There used to be a legal market for ivory. Did that curb the slaughter?

No. But we have extensive programmes to monitor illegal killing of elephants. Based on that you will see that the main problem we have in terms of poaching is areas where you have intense poverty, challenges in terms of governance systems et cetera. It's no good focusing on one aspect, to legalise or not. It's far more complicated.

Won't the creation of a legal market alongside an illegal market make it even more complicated?

No, because our intention is to be as strict as possible in terms of what will be allowed.

How will you stop criminal syndicates from laundering illegal horns through the legal market?

How will that be done considering the regulations that will be put in place?

Isn't this what happened in China, which also had regulations in place to prevent illegal ivory entering the legal market?

I'm not going to express myself in terms of any systems in China. I'm not from China.

Isn't it useful to look at what has been tried elsewhere?

Of course. I don't know what the system is in China, but I do know that [with] the system we will be putting in place, if it is approved, we will be able to manage and control internal trade.