Malema turns tables on ANC leadership
Image by: LEBOHANG MASHILOANE
Julius Malema believes he has punched holes in the ANC's disciplinary case against him and has vowed to fight to the bitter end.
He challenged the ANC to fire him because, he said, he had no intention of resigning.
Last week the ANC's national disciplinary committee found Malema and his top executives guilty of contravening the party's constitution.
Malema's membership of the party was suspended for five years and his top executives got suspended sentences pending their appeal.
Yesterday, Malema and his executives turned the tables and accused senior ANC leaders of using the national disciplinary committee as a platform "to settle political scores", for "personal problems" and "to stifle debate".
They questioned the legitimacy of the hearings.
ANC secretary-general Gwede Mantashe and disciplinary committee chairman Derek Hanekom were singled out. Mantashe was accused of masterminding the charges against the youth league leadership; Hanekom of pursuing a political agenda.
"A decision to convict and sanction the ANC Youth League leadership was taken by the secretary-general, who made his intentions clear in all his statements."
Malema said that during the disciplinary hearings Hanekom had failed to control his temper.
He said the committee was convened "merely" to give his conviction legitimacy.
But the ANC yesterday rejected the claims and said issues raised by the youth league should be taken to its appeals committee.
Malema's accusations were made as the ANC leadership race is hotting up. Youth League structures are pushing behind the scenes for Zuma to be replaced by his deputy, Kgalema Motlanthe, and for their former president, Fikile Mbalula, to replace Mantashe as secretary-general next year.
In their defence yesterday, Malema and his executives said the ANC's national officials, led by Zuma, were not empowered by the party's constitution to institute disciplinary charges against them, and that they should have allowed the party's national executive committee to prefer the charges.
But the ANC yesterday said its constitution fully empowered its national officials to prefer charges against any member.
Malema said Hanekom had used an outdated youth league constitution to effect his removal from office.
He said a new constitution, which was amended at the youth league's national conference, in June, gives his national executive committee the right to subject a ruling party conviction to a youth league inquiry.
But senior ANC leaders who spoke to The Times rejected Malema's stance.
They said the constitutions of ANC organisations could not conflict with the constitution of the parent body.
"If we use [Malema's] logic it will mean that a magistrate's court can overrule the Constitutional Court. It cannot be like that. That amendment they made is invalid," said a senior party official last night.
Malema said that, despite his conviction, he will not give up the helm of the youth league. He said the ANC did not have the power to suspend him and he would appeal.
Malema questioned the composition of the national disciplinary committee, and accused Collins Chabane, Susan Shabangu and Hanekom of conflict of interest. He said they had expressed views against the youth league's campaigns for the nationalisation of mines and land expropriation.
Malema said Chabane refused to recuse himself from the committee despite having done so in respect of last year's disciplinary hearing. He said that the factors that prompted Chabane to recuse himself last year could not have changed.
"Hanekom is recorded as having publicly said that one of the policy positions of the ANC Youth League on expropriation of land without compensation will not happen as long as he is in the ANC," Malema said.
He warned that if ANC leaders were allowed to use the party's constitution to solve personal problems, then the party would be in danger of disintegrating.
Last night, the youth league said the possibility that Hanekom, Shabangu and Chabane used the national disciplinary committee to settle political scores and suppress dissent was very high.
As the battle between the ANC and its youth wing continues, ANC Gauteng chairman and Arts and Culture Minister Paul Mashatile yesterday conceded that the ruling party had "enormous" challenges.
Mashatile threw down the gauntlet, saying that the ANC was "going through a lot of challenges", and intimating that the organisation was at a crossroads.
Referring to the youth league's war with the ANC's leaders, Mashatile said Albert Luthuli would not have allowed such "shenanigans".
"He [Luthuli] would be the one going to young leaders to tell them to focus on the objectives of what the ANC set many years ago.
"There are a lot of new people in the organisation that still need to be taught the ways of the ANC," said Mashatile.
He warned that it was imperative that the ANC re-focus its energy on unity ahead of next year's centenary celebrations in January and the elective conference in Mangaung in December.
Malema said that, despite the verdicts against him, he would not give up his leadership of the youth league, and said the ANC had no power to suspend him. He said he would appeal his suspension.
"Resigning is not an option. I must be fired. It is not only me [who was charged] it was the entire leadership," he said.
Malema said his resignation would set a precedent for those who succeeded him, forcing them to resign if they were accused of making radical statements.
"So, to save many generations, we have to soldier on in defence of the autonomy of the youth league and its leadership.
"We are a radical and militant voice. It has not started with us, it started with the founding generation in 1944. When you want to destroy this youth league because you are irritated by Malema, then you are wrong. You are destroying the legacy of Nelson Mandela and OR Tambo.
"Why didn't Madiba resign even when he was in a difficult situation like that . 27 years in prison, five years of loitering in the streets. Why must I resign?
"We are fighting a political battle, not a personal battle. Let the enemies celebrate; their celebration will be short-lived. You will never destroy the radical politics of the ANC."







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If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.Scribbles
Posted 548 days agoJohannesModise
ShLace
Its been 67 years pleaaaase. Somebody, anybody, should teach this young man to count. Needless to say both Tambo and Mandela were meticulously educated and principled intellectual responding to a very 'radical and militant form' of oppression the whole world over. Jim Crow laws in the USA, and intense racist and violent laws in SA.
Yes Scribbles, the ANC his radicalism borders on ignorance. He's the Black version of the KKK; and if allowed to establish his rule, he'll soon be calling for enslavement and lynching of all White people.
thathaguluva
ChickenRunner
Scribbles
No need for petty insults in lieu of a well thought-out counter.
Thatthaguluva said, "The flexible mind of student or learner as you eloquently put it has a platform where it can be achieved which is SASCO and not ANCYL."
This does not solve the issue of the YOUTH league's poor example for the YOUNG of South Africa, comrade. You've completely missed the point of my comment.
AMS-Dammer
He thinks he is ontop..... but he is currently SCRAPING THE BOTTOM OF THE PROVEBIAL BARREL!!!
His future is STUFFED.... his FINANCES are STUFFED... therefore his determination of holding onto his ANC MEMBERSHIP CARD is pushing the envelope a little to far... I'd say...
Julius... go into the FUNERAL BUSINESS..... because in the ANC's eyes.... YOU ARE DEAD MEAT!
THANK GOODNESS!
jack.daniels
Posted 548 days agoSA is destined to go the exact same route as Zimbabwe did with dumb Bob
None of these guys have any idea how to run a soup kitchen, let alone an
economy that already has plus 50% unemployment and rising - every baby
born after 2015 will never find a job in SA - ever - get the baby pill today
BobbyJaan
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 548 days agoamaKK
Posted 548 days ago---
You have been suspended...relegated...banished...shoved aside. There's no reason for them to break any sweat firing you.
Take your punishment like the youth you claim to be - go sulk quietly in the corner.
nightingale
Malema seems to have a covert Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde personality where in person, in tv studios or interviews he presents himself as the most reasonable, humble and courteous person, as a misunderstood or victimised genuine revolutionary - while in reality he has mastered the art of turning politics into a profitable business venture, he continues to fan the flames of intolerance, division, greed and destruction (just look at what he did to his own party!) and causing untold damages with his inflammatory statements or uninformed disastrous ideas. He can take a small grain of fairly reasonable truth and cover it with so many layers of twisted delusional demagogy in such subtle masterful way - that the end result becomes the most grotesque and ridiculous - yet useful to him - thing.
DotM
Posted 548 days agoBiko-Lives
Posted 548 days agoThePurplePimp
Beelzebub
BobbyBob
Last line is the real issue, "want to share".
So this "revolutionary is nothing more than another one of the "Gimme" brigade. How about working for a living man. See there are many others all around you who do that and get on very well. Look man, its an option. Otherwise just be honest and say;
"We will never work!"
Biko-Lives
UDFSupporter
mmba
staren
The revolution happened 17 years ago - the ANC won the day and has been firmly in control since then.
Perhaps instead of spending your time ranting on about how you intend to destroy, maim, pillage and steal, you and your brethren would be better off showing some initiative, getting off your a$$, and making a positive contribution to the country and the economy...
ChwamaMahlulo
BobbyBob
You would be helping the youth more if you helped them get jobs, and a better education. You are not helping them with negative, dsetructive, pointless causes.
Truth-Speaker
SuiGeneris
''''''''You know whos" who seem to be attacking everything that symbolises a black man's sentiments of a progressive South Africa are hiding behind web pages and writing divisive comments from their iphones.
==========================
You have effectively rendered your own post null and void, because you are doing exactly what you are accusing the ''you know whos'' of......
NOT very sharp !!!!!!!
buddi
"WE MIGHT FIGHT AMONG EACH OTHER, BUT I PROMISE YOU THIS; WE'LL TEAR THE ROOF OFF IF YOU TRY TO GET ONE OF US" This applies to our ANCYL and ANC.
Doesn't seem to be working for you so well at the moment. While you are 'tearing the roof off each other' the people of this country are watching and learning. Maybe you'll get a surprise at the end of it.
FerdinandBerkhof
Abdou_LahadToure
BobbyBob
Earthian
I half-suspect B-L is a bot.
nkosipeter
Posted 548 days agoBobbyBob
Why should we believe anything she says?
Truth-Speaker
buddi
And the ones she didn't like, she just got rid of.
Stompie_se_Paai
...Winnie: child-killer, rebel without a Xhosa, Mugger of the nation, the iron lady ...ironing for Mrs Botha.
Earthian
Seriously? You want one white man who spoke of justice, of blacks and white living together in harmony? Just one? There are plenty. PLENTY. Joe Slovo. Rowley Arenstein. Bram Fischer, Frederick Van Zyl Slabbert, etc etc et al and so on.
I understand it's tempting to indulge in race-baiting when it's being done to you, but really, the moral high ground is much better, plus it has a nice view.
Investor44
Posted 548 days agoPSG
Please note that I'm no Mr Malema's fan, you are saying that we have lost billions in investments due to him can you please elaborate on that?
Please give examples of such potential investments that we have lost.
nightingale
Do you in your opinion think that the persistent talks or suggestions or the mere possibility for nationalisation and expropriation without compensation:
A. Do no affect the business climate or discourage investment (local and foreign) at all?
B. Improve business climate and encourage investment (local and foreign)?
C. Worsen business climate and confidence, and discourage investment (local and foreign)?
in case of C. - Do you think this is something that can be measured in absolute terms, and supported by concrete facts - and if yes - what exactly? If no - what is the meaning of your original question?
ThePurplePimp
PSG
All I want are facts :-).
My question is a simple on. A statement was made that we have lost billions of well needed investment cause of Mr Malema and my question was please give me examples of such investments that we have lost due to Mr Malema.
For example, all that I'm looking for is due to Mr Malema’s nationalization talks well company X pulled out of SA or company Y is taking it’s RXb investment somewhere else. This is all I’m looking for rather than speculations.
To counteract your argument/s, the Oppernheimers sold their stake to Anglo American recently. What says you to that? Isn't that still investment?
Anglo American still saw it fit to buy that 40% under the nationalization talk :-).
PSG
How are you this morning?
Investor44
2. There are countless mining, agricultural and manufacturing projects which can create growth and jobs have been indefinatly put on hold and/or moved to other countries, including African countries where there is more certaintly in terms of economic policy. This has definatly cost the country countless bilions and many thousands of jobs.
3. Bear in mind the debate is around differences in economic policy - remove the individuals involved. SA must choose between economic policies, proven the world round, devised by highly specilised and qualified economists; and the alternative - An economic philosophy by an unemployed high school dropout, motivated by Mugabe, Chavez and Kadafi, whose lunatic fringe economic guidence is GUARENTEED to cause a MASSIVE collapse in the SA economy, increasing joblessness and poverty al la Zimbabwe.
nightingale
A, B or C, PSG?
Investor44
Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) is a pre-requisite for growth and job creation. FDI is about the entry into the economy of a bundle of resources, of which some is money, but one must consider skills, technology, business models, management capabilities, new products and new processes too. In my view, these are much more important for long-term economic growth than dollar value
1. South Africa's foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows has dropped by 70% in 2010 when compared with 2009, according to Professor Stephen Gelb of the University of Johannesburg. 2011 figures are even worse.
2. In 2010, South Africa received only 2.8% of the total of Africa's FDI - i.e. Investors are diverting investment to other African countries that are more investor friendly. That is why NIGERIA is set to overtake SA in terms of GDP by 2013 !!
3. This means we did not share in the rise of FDI inflows experienced by other developing economies in Asia and Latin America."
4. South Africa had received about $1.553-billion in FDI in 2010, coming in at 69th in the world and at a level amounting to only one sixth of its peak, recorded in the country in 2008
5. The index shows how much FDI a country received as a percentage of its gross domestic product (GDP). In this respect, South Africa came in at 128th in the world in 2010, directly behind Burkina Faso -- so this is a bit disappointing
PSG
I hear what you are saying and thank you for engaging with me in such a good way.
1. I read from one of the business newspapers that another rating agency kept our rating neutral now my question would be why would be why would professionals within the same industry come to two totally different conclusions?
2. I might seem to be playing hard ball but please give me examples of such projects?
3. The world is in a mess because of the very same well educated specialized and well qualified economists .
PSG
PSG
I just did a quick googling and found the following.
I'm not sure whether to believe your stats or what's contained in the article to the link below.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI
This link tells me that the drop in FDI from 2009 to 2010 was round about 10.8%. How do you get to 70%?
Investor44
Rightway
PSG
I’m not entertaining Mr Malema’s talk coz I’m against it. All I’m doing is inform myself. Saying that he’s an uneducated wara wara what what doesn’t destruct him from shouting on top of his voice and calling for nationalization coz the world is in this economic mess because of the well educated economists :-).
It seems that most countries’ FDI figures when compared to the previous year’s ones are not that good and that could be largely due to the economic climate currently playing itself out.
In our case it could be that plus what Mr Malema has been saying. Just like you nicely put it, we’ll never know until we have concrete proof from those that have diverted their investments away from SA why they did it :-).
PSG
Ha ha ha!!! Nah I'm having a d@rkie moment...oops Lindiwe Mazibuko has a problem with that term :-).
All I'm looking for are facts that link what Mr Malema said and the lost investments that everyone is talking about.
If I may ask why should our economic policies be particularly friendly to the West?
nightingale
Posted 54 minutes ago
@ Florence I thought my Oppeheimer argument asnwered your question :-). "
Eish! A man who won't give a straight answer to a straight question!
nightingale
Razzo
I just wanted to point out to the "economists and statisticians" this exctract from "businessday" front page: "International Monetary Fund agrees with Treasury that risk of "populist pressures" is overstated and endorses government’s countercyclical fiscal policy"........I think the important word there being "overstated". The article further states: "The International Monetary Fund (IMF) does not share the view of ratings agency Moody’s that there is a significant risk that state spending will spiral out of control and raise SA’s debt burden to unsustainable levels".
I think its clear to see that those who are accusing Juju of Populist behaviour are themselves inadvertently (sp) becoming populists themselves......"its kinda like the kettle calling the pot black".....isnt it?
Investor44
PSG
Yah right Florence you clever voter you :-).
For me not to slip in a banana pill, please give me air tight answers that don’t allow me to peep through the window and slip in that banana pill :-).
PSG
Don’t you find anything strange with that statement? If it is friendly to the West what about our other trade partners?
My question was why should it be friendly to the West not investor friendly. I think you clearly missed why I asked my question.
PSG
Thank you :-).
Investor44
Despite foreign direct investment (FDI) flows to developing economies having risen by an estimated 10% in 2010 when compared with 2009 figures, a new report estimates that FDI inflows into South Africa fell by a material 77,9% over the same period,
PSG
I read and when I don't understand I than ask questions.
nomakanjaane
andy.turner
Nice to know you set high standards for your leaders
Rightway
1.They are 70% of the world economy! It therefore makes logical sense to link with giants
2.They are more sensitive to Dictators like Mugabe and Malema then China. So we would live in a decent country if the West like us, as the Chinese do not care about oppressive regimes etc.
PSG
From where I’m seated, China, USA, UK and India are our top four trading partners and very soon other emerging economies will feature strongly on that list, this tells me that our economic policy should be as neutral as possible and encourage investment from all fronts.
China doesn’t care about oppressive regimes as much as some of the Western countries do not care about them either. eE.g. France, it lead the bombings in Libya and finally it has come out saying that it would like to be one of the front runners for oil deals when the new regime starts doing business, so much for caring.
Thespear
Posted 548 days agoANCYL in exile was a political desk but we denied this, and now people are using their former commander to dictate this to the ANCYL, the ANCYL should soldier on as this issue cannot be dealt with by Hanekom and crew but ANC congresss, this is a constitutional issue, we need to find out from the ANC when did the word autonomous change, as former youth leagque, members, I guess those who hate Malema and see this as a malema issue, or ill-discpline will help the situation by just shutting-up, or asked to be educated in ANC policies than resorting to unnecesssary name calling, as its clearf they know not what they are talking about.
ThePurplePimp
BobbyBob
ANCYL bears the name ANC, you understand. If you dont want to be ANC, call yourselves something else and good luck!
Truth-Speaker
lamelooser
Posted 548 days agoBobbyBob
BobbyBob
Posted 548 days agoCover something else.....
lamelooser
Posted 548 days agoIs it a neat substitute for hair?
BobbyBob
But revolutionaries look mean and lean, not fat and portly. They wear basic clothes, like T shirts , jeans and cheap watches, not designer gear and R 250 000 watches!
But we should not tell him this, as he told the BBC, "you know nothing about revolution !", hahahahaha.
MisterWendal
Posted 548 days agoFoolius - just because you will successfully bring the ANCYL to it's knees, is no guarantee that you can successfully bring the ANC to it's knees.
(But keep trying anyway!)
Jonos
Posted 548 days agoThePurplePimp
Thespear
Posted 548 days agoWe all know through the media that certain leaders within the ANC wanted a hasher sentence for Malema,
and it was reported that some want him expelled and others want him suspended for five years, which
we all know was true, as Hanekom, ruled indeed on 5 years as reported by the media.
Rejecting the claims today wont change the fact that the media, was well informed through the trial, and
ther prediction came to reality on the 10/11/11. Suprising to us, even the ANCYL leadership knew through the media that they will be charged,
how can this be divorced from each other, let those who have brains, think, and those who habors hate follow without thinking.
It is a fact that the decision was widely expected, and members closer to the disciplinery committee has made this clear even before the charges were tabled.
BobbyBob
Even I knew ( and I suspect many others also) looong before the media reported on it that a disciplinary hearing would be held. You cant have irresponsible hotheads ruining the country's reputation and denying people jobs and education. You have to stop it. That's the responsible thing to do.
As for the sentence, I knew that too. You cant have one hearing, with a suspended sentence and the culprit commits the same crime without consequences. It's like a criminal getting a suspended sentence and committing crime again.
.
Rightway
Posted 548 days agohistory for 5 years.
BlackTsunami
Posted 548 days agommba
If I could order policemen to escort me to the airport, I would speak truth to power in my sleep.
I could even do it blindfolded and all my hands tied behind my back.
Joe-Higgins
Nope...you are on the brink of becoming destructive history!
buddi
I wouldn't start celebrating yet.
BlackTsunami
BlackTsunami
Access
Posted 548 days agohe even has his little flock following him and defending his actions and reasoning.
didnt end too well for e.t. eventually. :-/
well, they say energy cannot be destroyed, only converted from one form to another.
meh. go figure
ooooooooo
Posted 548 days agoMisterWendal
nomakanjaane
Biko-Lives
Posted 548 days agoBobbyBob
Earthian
You shouldn't abandon Malema in favour of those building bunkers in KZN.
After all, he's reported to be building his very own bunker in his new mansion right here in Sandton.
Viva! Wait, I'm confused about how this revolutionary thing works. Is it "do what I say, not do what I do"?
samsam
Posted 548 days agoPosted 1 minutes ago
PSG
Posted 12 minutes ago
Let me intervene in your argument, the fact of the matter is we need to understand the priorities of the ruling govt of the ANC and its allies.
One of the priorities is job creation the remaining five I wont duel on them, what does that mean it means we need to create jobs for black ownership through BEE, that is supported by the money injected to ensure this priority is a success, R10b in that regard.
What Investor44 is analysing, it is his own perception far away what from the ruling partys priorities, not that the ruling party is against FDI not at all , but we need to ensure there is slide improvement of black ownership in JSE.
That is a reason why Thabo Mbeki was criticised for promoting FDIs yet people were nt employed, foreign investors are here to collect profit and we cannot allow our country to be colonised economically.
The question might be how do we create jobs locally, by means of rural development, agriculture, EPWP etc
Investor44 must stop being an agent for west who will come here to exploit our resources, instead we need our black professionals to take initiatives in creating those jobs.
I hope Investors44 should familiarise himself well with the ANCs priorities first and understand where this country is heading and look at the progress made since took over from apartheid regime
PSG
Posted 548 days agoHa ha ha!!! Nah I'm having a d@rkie moment...oops Lindiwe Mazibuko has a problem with that term :-).
All I'm looking for are facts that link what Mr Malema said and the lost investments that everyone is talking about.
If I may ask why should our economic policies be particularly friendly to the West?
BobbyBob
Just be investor friendly.
staren
Thats like owning a shop and asking why you should open the doors to the public... seriously.
PSG
Staren, Bobby put it noicely that our economic policies should be investor friendly not friendly to a certain group only :-). Hope that clears it.
staren
PSG
Seeing that the West is in a lot of trouble financially and has been for sometime, your statement could shed some light as to why our FDIs have declined so much.
Rightway
1.They are 70% of the world economy! It therefore makes logical sense to link with giants.
2.They are more sensitive to Dictators like Mugabe and Malema then China. So we would live in a decent country if the West like us, as the Chinese do not care about oppressive regimes etc.
BokFan
Posted 548 days agothe coming of the new born King"
Round about now I dont think the anc wants to hear too many carols about the coming of Jesus.
BokFan
Posted 548 days agoHola PSG. I see the economic argument is supposedly all about ideology again. i would have thought that the followers self defeating passion for dogma would have evaporated while watching the chinese wipe their bums on Marx, Lenin and Mao.
I am very much amazed though that intelligent folks can still fall for the Yob Leagues con tricks. Its almost as if they cant see the pictures of catastrophe before their very eyes.
But I guess these visions of an apocalypse are part of our culture. Nonguase also promised the end of the white man and we know where that ended.
PSG
I've always been saying that I'm against nationalization.
I guess my question makes people to cloud their judgement just like it is the case when one is against the DA certain people will jump to a conclusion that you support the ANC vice versa.
All I'm after are facts period :-).
staren
If you were planning on investing R100 million for example, in a mining enterprise in a particular country, and calls were made in that country for 60% of your investment to be nationalised, or land to be forcibly reclaimed without compensation, how keen do you think you would be continue with your planned investment?
PSG
Anglo American just invested a further $5.1b by acquiring the Oppenheimer stake. Not so long ago an Australian company.
Walmart investment.
These are all investments taking place as we speak under the nationalization talk. Government Ministers like Trevor Manuel have come out and said that there is no money to nationalize mines, the Deputy Pres went to the UK and echoed the same message.
I’ve always said that as long as there is a quick buck to be made, investors will continue investing.
nomakanjaane
Razzo
PSG
That's true.
Mfana ngikwesaMsholozi isigodi aka Pretoria.
I'll be down eThawini next weekend :-).
staren
For example, its easy to tell how many people purchased something from a particular shop - look at the sales volumes. But how do you identify and quantify how many people were discouraged from entering the shop and making a purchase because the shop looked dirty inside or didn't have a great selection to choose from?? You cant. Hence the need for foresight and the understanding that every single aspect of our existence is governed by the principle of cause-and-effect.
Look, the reality is that any intelligent, diligent, investor who have may thought about investing either in property or mining in SA in the upcoming future, would have at the very LEAST, thought twice about it.
As an intelligent person, can you not say that if you were a foreigner thinking of potentially investing in our mining industry in the near future, that you too would not be hesitant if calls were made to Nationalise 60% of the industry?
nomakanjaane
PSG
I was shocked at the number of companies queuing in Zimbabwe MTN, Anglo America, Telkom, etc yet the Zim Government’s policy is that any company in Zimbabwe needs to be 51% owned by locals this includes multinationals.
Like a responsible person I’ll exercise caution but that doesn’t mean that the risk will completely put me off just like I have shown with examples given above how companies are keen on doing business in risky terrains like Zim :-).
PSG
Mina my man to take over would be Cyril Ramaphosa he has proven himself as a principled leader both in society and in business.
That's not to say that he doesn't have his fault he does just like all of us do.
staren
The one point on where you are wrong though, is the assertion that the higher the risk, the higher the return. This only applies to certain situations, and where conditions are conducive to a favourable return.
What kind of a return do think MacDonalds would see on their investment, for example, if they had to open an outlet in central Baghdad or rural Afghanistan?
nomakanjaane
PSG
Maybe I should have said in general , the higher the high return. Yes it applies to certain situations and the conditions might not be conducive to a favourable return but you make them to be conducive e.g. MTN made it in Nigeria and is now milking it yet Vodacom and Telkom burnt their fingers.
ROTFLMAO, I don’t even waste my money on their food they serve skinny chips LOL!!! I like mine the old way.
nightingale
... did someone just mention skinny chips..? ;-P
PSG
Mfethu any news from Sox and Mthizolo?
These two wherever they are eish kuyafiwa :-).
The last time I heard from Mthizolo was when he was accompanying BWL eyohlala kumattress eVentersdorp "tongue-in-cheek" :-).
PSG
Go and get them with your chicken foldover and make Mr Cyril Ramaphosa even more richer than he is today :-p.
nomakanjaane
PSG
nightingale
With every single thing you buy - you make someone richer. Do you have a problem with that?
And I'd much rather make someone like Ramaphosa (who appears to be a sane, successful and intelligent individual) richer than someone like Malema.
PSG
I just had a nice plate of food on the side of the road with nice meat coz I know that when I get home it's going to be greens all the way as if I'm a rabbit :-).
nightingale
Glad you got that nice plate of proper food - as long as it does not become a dangerous habit for you to get by the side of the road whatever you are not getting at home! LOL!
staren
Posted 548 days ago--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.[9]
People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[10] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility. In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he/she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
Although individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements.[11] With narcissistic personality disorder, the individual's self-perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments."
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Fool for thought.
SuiGeneris
Investor44
Posted 548 days agosthabi
Posted 548 days agoFirst of all…Im not a big fan of Juju, I have never liked him and I don’t think I ever will. But for the first time yesterday I heard him saying very relevant things, very valid and very rational. I think 90% of his speech was on how the processes towards and during his DC were flawed, how the decision to suspend him was made even before the DC, quoting statements of previous leaders saying the same things that he’s been charged for, proving how the ANC is (mis)using the state organs to discredit and supress the views of the ANCYL, how the media has been bias, and how the whole ‘thing’ is just a difference in political views and must be solved(debated) politically.
So to sum it up, I was very impressed with their briefing. But Juju being Juju, he obviously had to say some stupid and controversial things in-between. And now what really got me worried (for someone who saw the whole briefing), when I watched the news last night, they only showed three different clips of the speech where he was saying stupid things….and none of the valid things that he mentioned.
That really got me worried….why omit all the valid things in his speech and choose to show only the ‘stupid’ part of his speech. Isn’t that somehow assisting to turn people against him? For someone who didn’t see the whole speech….the three clips that they see on the news will represent what the ANCYL is all about. The media can either make you or break you…depending on what ‘they’ want.
I start to wonder if this isn’t what has been happening all along??
Don’t get me wrong…I think Juju is arrogant(maybe too arrogant), he somehow dislikes white people(just don’t wanna use the word ‘hate’), he thinks he is untouchable, and he overestimates his power. But I seriously think he knows his politic, he raises serious issues, but the few stupid things that he says discredit all the clever things he’s trying to communicate.
Just my opinion!!
SuiGeneris
=========================
He says stupid things all the time, very serious things, and that makes him a very stupid person and politician.....
nomakanjaane
sthabi
I can olny reiterate on what he said as I was not in the DC and do not have any proof.
But he mentioned how Henekom as the chairperson of the DC was inpatient and often lost his temper during the proceedings. Juju's legal team even had to request for a break to discuss among themselves if they still want to continue with the proceedings or not. However. Henekom apologised and the DC continued.
So the DC where the chairperson looses his temper to the extend where he has to apologise to the defence team, whereas he is the one who's supposed to ensure fairsness and conducive environment for all parties....dont you think that can (could) sway the decision somehow?
nomakanjaane
But then thanks for admitting that you are just relying on their narration of events - i thought you had your own opinion on the process. but in all fairness - do you think malema would give you a balanced view of the proceedings? just a question to you
Markde_Vries
sthabi
I agree....he says srtupid things ALL THE TIME.
However...after lisnening to him for about two hours yeaterday, I picked up a whole lot of valid and somehow intelligent(for a change) things in his speech. And he obviously had to spoil it by saying stupid things as usual.
My argument is...off all the things he said, why does all news broadcasts show clips that have a bad reflection on him? Of all the things he said...why only choose to broadcast the stupid ones?? All Im saying is that the media has to be fair and broadcast 'balanced' news.
Im not defending Juju here...but Im worried that we only see what the media wants us to see and that somehow has an influence on our judgement.
buddi
Don't you think that maybe Malema is exaggerating the issues a little bit, and that he is reporting on the hearing how HE sees it, and not really how it really is? How often don't supporters of Malema take his word as gospel?
Somehow I have more faith in the ANC (who I am not a fan of) than the ANCYL (who I am definitely not a fan of).
sthabi
I guess none of us will never know what really took place in that DC...or even in the 'secret meetings' towards the DC.
Nonetheless...I think Malema is ill-disciplined, too arrogant for his own good, greedy, possibly corrupt and misleading, and is not a good representation of the youth of the country (especially black), and that he's not an ideal person to be a leader.
Secondly, I was not impressed with the clips of media briefing that they showed on the news. As much as Im not a Malema fan...I think it is the media's responsibility to give a 'balanced' and 'objective' broadcast of any speech made by any political party. I watched the whole media briefing for almost two hours yesterday, and what I saw on the news headline later on, what almost a total contrast of what the briefing was all about. They showed selective clips of all the awful and stupid things he said...and none of the valid things. So we also have to put an eye on what the media wants to feed us!!
Food for thought!!
Access
I recognise a marketing or sales technique in all of this.
Say enough rubbish and some of what you say is relevent and true, you get reactions out of it. You then take those things you got reactions out of and keep saying them, while adding new things, etc.
You get people saying "yes", get positives going, eventually all of what you are saying seems correct to the listener and your story is "sold".
Its easy to pick up what to say by studying the media. I am not convinced this man is actually doing anything good, actions speak louder than words.
Whats that thing hitler said? "tell a lie, make it a big lie, keep it simple, keep telling the lie, eventually people will believe you" or something like that.
omni
Posted 548 days agoKarabo_N.Ndlovu
Posted 548 days agoBlackTsunami
Posted 548 days agobuddi
nomakanjaane
OTTOOTTO
Posted 548 days agoANC leaders one way or the other serve in one committee or the other and thereby have oversight over all the work of the ANC. All ANC leaders respect all processes of the ANC at all times, that is why Mbeki resigned and didn’t appeal, its an exercise of futile stupidity. The Holomisa’s and the Lekota’s did not to even attempt it. The Top Six – are the executive led by President Zuma who have an obligation from the NGC to instil discipline without fear or favour as they have duly done on Malema. Malema can’t expect the President to consult the mass membership of the ANC NEC or the NWC every time he has to enforce discipline or institute charges, he already has those powers as a President and the 2010 NGC resolutions.
ANC organisational processes like in any organisation are not a court of law, Malema knows what he signed-up for and now conflates the disciplinary system of a political organisation with a legal system. He also confuses issues - he was charged as an ANC member not as the leader of the ANCYL. The ANCYL constitution applies only to the ANCYL members and cannot be in conflict with the ANC constitution as such ANCYL constitution does not apply to ANC members. The ANCYL with its own constitution does not vote in the NEC and is there as an ex-officio member, that’s how legal the ANCYL constitution.
Thousands of ANC members face the NDC and receive the same treatment, they don’t get to have sentence mitigation opportunities or be consulted as to how severe the disciplinary action should be – for goodness sake this is a disciplinary process not a court of law process. By all accounts of his tirade the Appeals Committee will confirm the NDC verdict and may extend the sentence for his ill timed tirade and aspersions against the ANC and the NEC.
This confirms how divisive Malema is apart from being a complete ass. The media is so bankrupt they cant see beyond what they have been fed_bull. They couldnt ask a single question of relevance to the matter of Malema's presentation.
FerdinandBerkhof
Posted 548 days agoOTTOOTTO
Posted 548 days agoRazzo
Yes, some senior leaders might have influence in raising certain matters and hoping that the YL will champion their cause, but to simply reduce all the YL ascertions on certain issues to just Winnie Mandela and Tokyo Sexwale is a bit misplaced and tantamount to mischief......Im not attacking you here, but just wanted to clarify the issue because there are branches in the ANC and ANCYL that wanted these resolutions to be dealt with as evident in the ANC Polokwane Conference of 2007 which is where these were adopted!!
nomakanjaane
Razzo
nomakanjaane
Razzo
Posted 548 days agomadlapha
bis_k'hallawaya
Razzo
Biko-Lives
Posted 548 days ago1. Land expropriation without compansation.
2. The nationalisation of our countries mines and all the monopoly industries.
3. Free education for all from primary up to the university.
4. Wage Subsidy for the youth!
Furthermore we would like to see a new form of leadership of the ANC the ones that are going to truely represent the ideals of O.R.! Amandla!! Forwad ever, backward never! It is our time to eat!!
nomakanjaane
staren
Education is a privilege, not a right. You would well to remember that.
Razzo
staren
I dont think so.
It is a PRIVILEDGE to have someone who is prepared to dedicate their life to the purpose of educating you. It is not your right to expect that there will be someone out there prepared to give their life for the purpose of educating you!
YOUR mentality, with your sense of self-entitlement, IS what is wrong with this country at the moment.
BobbyBob
What you are suggesting is nothing more than staying in the mud of the past and digging a hole in it. Soon the whole elephant will disappear in the pit you dug.
There is no forward in what you suggest, you just want to take from one , give to another without thinking about the economic consequences. There would be massive unemployment and hunger. Our people would run to Zimbabwe for food.
No, the way forward is to create opportunities, grow a bigger economy, create more jobs and that's not easy when most countries, including those of the west have the same problem of huge youth unemployment, just like us.
Razzo
staren
Life, education, employment, freedom etc are things that are either bestowed upon us by the grace of others or are things that we gain through our own labours.
Additionally - and albeit from a slightly skewed perspective admittedly - asserting that you have the right to education, is indirectly also asserting that someone else HAS TO, without choice, be an educator, to satisfy your right..
Would you still feel the same way if you lived a country that had only 100 people for example, and none of the other 99 people had any desire to be educators. Would you still assert the same right to education? And if they asserted their right to education, would you be prepared to take on the burden and responsibility of educating another?
The point is that everything comes at an expense, not so? For one person to be educated, it requires that another be prepared to educate.
Anyway - and more importantly - I think we both agree that education is critical and that EVERY child should be given the opportunity to reach their full potential. As to whether or not we consider it a right or a privilege, on that I am more than happy to agree to disagree... J
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 548 days ago.......we suggest start nationalising the limpet mines, keep them in your pockets....
......demand spring time for six months a year and summer for the rest........
........the time to eat is too far...the time to defecate is still in progress.........
Mtho'engenanqondo
Posted 547 days agoBobbyBob
The economic measures you and Malema suggest are solutions some believe will solve our problems.If they did , you would see many people and business suporting it. Many jobs mean a bigger economy and that means more profit and a happier country with less crime.
Reality however shows that those "solutions" do not work, they create misery, hunger and starvation as the economy implodes and the tax revenues dry up.
So what is the solution? There are solutions, but they are difficult and involve hard work and labour flexibility. We are not alone facing issues like that, the world struggles with massive youth unemployment.
spain
The growth of the economy creates jobs - that growth itself depends on the political framework of a country especial policy formulation - in SA we have been experiencing economic growth but ours has been jobless.
JohannesModise
Posted 547 days agosamsam
JohannesModise
Posted 547 days agoRogueTrooper
Thrust
Posted 547 days agoCould it be because he raises sensetive topics, such as, distribution of wealth?
spain
RogueTrooper
Some examples...Adolph Hitler, Che Guevara, Idi Amin, Muammar Gaddafi, Charles Taylor, Robert Mugabe, and the list goes on and on
staren
Really it has nothing to do with addressing sensitive issues, black-or-white, but everything about recognising and avoiding the exact same mistake our northern neighbours made.
And the last time I checked, foresight is colourbind.
spain
RogueTrooper
spain
staren
But I think the clincher - that was obvious to all - was when he declared the day before yesterday during his tv press conference that an attack on him is an attack on the ANCYL.
Basically the man declared that HE is the YL, and that he considers himself to be bigger than the ANC and beyond reproach... if after that press conference there could be any doubt as the mans true nature, and that his actions are anything less than self serving, well...
BarryPotgieter
Posted 547 days agospain
bis_k'hallawaya
......They try to defend the indefensible, and since, as the saying goes: 'There is no worse blind man than the one who refuses to see'..........we descended to a 4th world country category already.....
........consider the comments of a Nkandla neighbour with a "matchbox-dwelling (and perhaps an open toilet)" to Mr Zuma's "Little-Versailles-mini-palace-on-the-Nkandla-prairie":
""The residents of Nkandla likewise have good things to say about President Jacob Zuma.
"Our president is making us proud. Look what he has done to Nkandla," the Mail & Guardian newspaper quoted a resident, who was admiring the developments at Zuma's hometown, as saying.
Zuma's Nkandla is undergoing a major facelift, reportedly costing the taxpayer between R69-million and R400-million."""" (your TL columnist Phumla Matjila)
JohannesModise
Posted 547 days agoRogueTrooper
KingsleyLonkokile
Posted 547 days agoproudySA
Posted 547 days agospain
Alexio
Posted 547 days agoNMashaba
Posted 547 days agoMalema and the rest of the ANCYL leadership must consider this suspension as an opportunity to reinvent themselves. Make themselves relevant and representative of the current SA youth vs the 1976 youth who were fighting a completely different battle.
As much as I would like to support and be a part of the ANCYL, I cannot, as it does not represent who I am, and where I am going, nor does it resemble what I would imagine the ANCYL to be about.
I also find it concerning that Malema genuinely believes that he and the ANCYL still represent the ANC youth, when they can openly be in contradiction of the mother organization and the reason for their existence.
Malema, take some time out and figure out what exactly you want to stand for and evaluate if that is in line with the ANC and take it from there!
Scribbles
Well said!
Maddock
Posted 547 days agoThe verdict by the hearing is a step in the right direction. Our youth must exercise their democratic rights peacefully. Otherwise the economic and strategic interests of the nation supersede individualistic interests, within their ranks or their sponsors within ANC leadership. They cannot take us back to medieval hunting and gathering through nationalisation of land and mines. The ordinary youth simply want jobs and fast cars, and the two policies they champion will not bring about that, ask Zimbos.
Tell-It
Posted 547 days agospain
Scribbles
So you feel that we should simply DO something to help the poor and yet cripple us by saying we can't rely on investments, economics, or business to achieve our goal? I'll have to firmly disagree and say that the state of the economy DOES matter, especially if you want to help the poor. I'm not sure how you can think otherwise.
On top of this, you feel we should support Malema who priorities marches over education as well as militancy and radicalism over reason? He doesn't even have a plan of action other than to make calls for expropriation without compensation. That's not a plan, that's an attempt to legalize theft and nullify the rights of all South Africans.
Your attempts at allieviating the plight of the poor sound more like calls for an authoritarian government with a penchant for militancy.
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 547 days ago"""""How can we care more about JSE indexes, moody's ratings and Investor confidence more than the suffering and plight of our own hungry children roaming the streets with no future prospects whatsoever??Shocking! """"""'
??????????..............
.......No good deed goes unpunished!......................ha ha ha ha ha ha hahehehe eee.....
..I think we humans are born either to be 'dominators' or 'slaves'.........When the latter are duped and mocked by the former as "they are in power", we realise why continents like Africa and other 3d world countries exist. No deity, whatever your beliefs are, is responsible for this....But it is part of evolution..........
Thandabantu
IanWillow
Tokolosh