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Thu May 23 09:52:24 SAST 2013

ANC 'taking SA beyond apartheid'

RETHA GROBBELAAR, NIVASHNI NAIR and CHARL DU PLESSIS | 21 November, 2011 00:13
Nadine Gordimer was awarded a Nobel Prize in 1991 for being "of very great benefit to humanity" Picture: MAX BERG

Nobel laureate Nadine Gordimer has accused the ANC of taking South Africa beyond apartheid with its Protection of Information Bill.

Gordimer, speaking in Johannesburg at an 88th birthday celebration yesterday, said the bill goes "totally against all ideas of freedom".

"People have fought and died to gain the opportunity for a better life, which is ruined and dirtied by corruption.

"The corrupt practices and nepotism that they [politicians] allow themselves is exposed if we have freedom of expression. When we all voted together, which was a great moment in my life, [we thought] everything would be alright. That was a childish idea."

Her comments were made as protests about the Protection of Information Bill intensify. It is expected to be voted on tomorrow in the National Assembly.

Dene Smuts, the DA's spokesman for justice and constitutional development, said there was "quite a long way to go" before the bill was enacted.

Following tomorrow's vote, the bill will have to be voted on in the National Council of Provinces, which could refer it back to the National Assembly.

Smuts said she would petition President Jacob Zuma to refer the bill to the Constitutional Court to determine its constitutionality.

Yusuf Abramjee, chairman of the National Press Club, yesterday confirmed that the club had lodged a complaint about the Info Bill with Public Protector Thuli Madonsela.

Abramjee said Madonsela's office had "a good track record of looking at things independently".

Abramjee said the club's major objection to the bill was its exclusion of a public interest defence and the harsh penalties journalists and whistle-blowers would face.

The club launched a renewed Black Wednesday campaign - evoking the events of October 19 1977, when the apartheid government banned two newspapers - and has asked that people wear black on Wednesday as a sign of their opposition to the bill.

The office of ANC chief whip Mathole Motshegka yesterday slammed the campaign, saying comparing a "purely democratic and open process to one of the darkest days of apartheid" was "gravely senseless".

In a statement late last night, Motshekga's office said people should not "campaign in a manner that trivialises the deep pain and suffering experienced by the majority of our people" under apartheid.

The statement repeated previous statements made by the chief whip that the bill was in line with international standards and said there would still be further opportunities for discussion around it when it was sent to the NCOP.

"This government will never and has no intention to ban, torture or murder journalists," it read.

Former intelligence minister Ronnie Kasrils yesterday said an attack on him by ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu was "patently very ill-considered, highly abusive and intemperate".

Mthembu accused Kasrils of wanting to rule the intelligence services "from the grave" after he criticised State Security Minister Siyabonga Cwele.

"As someone who fought in the struggle . I am appalled. I want to raise my voice for the principles the ANC stood for and that is exactly what I've been doing, though it's akin to talking into a toy telephone," Kasrils said.

Concerns about the Info Bill are mounting against the backdrop of Mac Maharaj, Zuma's spin doctor, laying criminal charges on Saturday against two Mail & Guardian journalists for allegedly obtaining information illegally.

The newspaper featured a picture of Maharaj with the words: "Censored. We cannot bring you this story in full due to a threat of criminal prosecution."

Yesterday, Maharaj criticised M&G editor Nic Dawes, accusing him of playing "political games" by trying to garner support for his campaign against the bill.

In response, Dawes said he was "unembarrassed" about being an advocate for press freedom and Maharaj was wrong about him pushing a hidden agenda.

"If Maharaj believes we are reporting this to make some kind of elaborate performance around press freedom, he is a fantasist."

Dawes said Maharaj had brought the charges to "use state resources" to try to uncover his journalists' sources.

"Maharaj will answer any question except the question about him lying under oath to the Scorpions about the large sums of money that he received from a company that was awarded a tender under his department."

According to yesterday's Sunday Times, secret payments totalling 1.2-million French francs (about R3.2-million at the time) were deposited into the offshore bank accounts of Maharaj's wife, Zarina, shortly before the Department of Transport awarded French arms company Thales a R265-million tender. Maharaj was transport minister at the time.

SHARE YOUR OPINION

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BornintheRSA

Posted 549 days ago
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When Zuma approved the Arms Deal investigation, he had a few other trumps up his sleave. This ANC government is not one to be trusted as acting in the public interest.
There is no difference in the morality of this ANC and that of the NATS. Yet, while the NATS had the interests of the minority group in mind, the ANC serves only themselves, not their people.
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ChickenRunner

Posted 548 days ago
KNOW YOU KNOW WHY THEY CALL IT A STRUGGLE. WAKE UP SOUTH AFRICA YOU HAVE JUST BEEN SCREWED GOOD!

Scribbles

Posted 549 days ago
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Nadine shouldn't resort to hyperbole as it hurts more than helps her point. This info bill does take us a step towards the levels of media control endorsed during apartheid but certainly not "beyond". I can understand how she feels however as even a small step can be one too many in this instance.

I984

Posted 549 days ago
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Hyperbola or not - ceding complete and full power and control unconditionally and indefinitely to any person, party or institution is NEVER a good idea and always leads to one thing only - an abusive oppressive toxic dysfunctional relationship.

Akihito

Posted 549 days ago
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The club launched a renewed Black Wednesday campaign.

=====================================================
True to form. These incompetent idiots cannot organise anything - they're having Black Wednesday on Tuesday.
=8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

"The corrupt practices and nepotism that they [politicians] allow themselves is exposed if we have freedom of expression. When we all voted together, which was a great moment in my life, [we thought] everything would be alright. That was a childish idea."
===============================================================================
That was not the only childish idea you had. This is a sign of your stupidity. Where have you ever seen that a bunch of communists have made "everything alright?"

zuluxtreme.bay1

Posted 549 days ago
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The problem is that we are well trained 'Sheeple', where is the transparency... All this money being spent does not belong to the government. We, the people entrust them with our money and yet 'they' do as 'they' please to the detriment of the people... As is the case with most governmnets across the world and here in South Africa, 'they' are supposed to work for us, not the other way around... I'm tired of being a well trained, brainwashed slave... ENOUGH!!!

danny.archer1

Posted 549 days ago
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""This government will never and has no intention to ban, torture or murder journalists," it read."

But you haven't said you never had and have no intention to ARREST and JAIL them, have you???
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SuiGeneris

Posted 549 days ago
''''''''''''''But you haven't said you never had and have no intention to ARREST and JAIL them, have you???''''''''''''''''''

=============================================

Only for a very short period of 15 years Danny......and only because they dared to expose the rot and to tell the truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rightway

Posted 549 days ago
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"People have fought and died to gain the opportunity for a better life, which is ruined and dirtied by corruption.

"The corrupt practices and nepotism that they [politicians] allow themselves is exposed if we have freedom of expression. When we all voted together, which was a great moment in my life, [we thought] everything would be alright. That was a childish idea."


.....

Not only childish but naive. Why would SA be any different then Zimbabwe and other failed African states. Handing a modern working state to a terrorist liberation movement by majority rule was not a good idea. They the ANC were not ready for government and are still not. The proof is there for all to see. ANC supporters should all be charged with treason as they are the ones that have allowed this plundering of SA to happen. They are guilty by association. So even the majority are not ready for democracy as they are still learning what make the world go around.

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 549 days ago
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How exactly is Mac going to sue the M+G ?
" I am hereby suing you for not printing anything "
Wow, thats going to be an amusing legal battle.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 549 days ago
Yes, and then Rapport went ahead on Sunday and printed all the allegations against him......

mac has a lot of explaining to do !!!!
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 549 days ago
Sunday Times also printed a whole bunch of the 'allegations'
Hope old Mac stole enough to sue an awful lot of journalists.

MohammedAbdulRahman

Posted 549 days ago
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Oh Allah, the most Merciful and yet harshest in punishment, wipe the whole ANC government off of the highest seats in paliarment and make them suffer for misleading the uneducated and misussing the tax-payers money. Only you All-Mighty Allah can cleanse the nation of this decay and plague of a government! Ameen!

Real struggle heroes perished the face of the earth because they have served their purpose for the nation and will forever be placed higher than the likes of Mandela, who is still on earth because Allah has not seen the good he has done for the nation except for his crunnies. Mandela is the ANC, the ANC is Mandela!

MisterWendal

Posted 549 days ago
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I believe that there is a call for Black Tuesday (tomorrow) and not Wednesday - due to the National Assembly strangely bringing the vote forward by a day.
Is this true?
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MisterWendal

Posted 549 days ago
"The latest news in the ongoing controversy surrounding the Protection of State Information Bill is that MPs will vote on the matter on Tuesday. The National Press Club has dubbed the day “Black Tuesday” and called on South Africans to don black as a form of protest; the Right2Know Campaign is organising multiple simultaneous pickets and Public Prosecutor Thuli Madonsela has set up a team to investigate concerns around the bill."

BobbyBob

Posted 549 days ago
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Do not underestimate this bill, no matter which political party you support.

In combination with the recent ruling that government officials can continure to hold private interests that can do business with government, the stars are aligned for massively corrupt schemes.

Corruption steals from the poor and gives to the rich, bringing poverty on all of us.

Do not underestimate the damage this will cause to our economy, to our country.
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Chico

Posted 548 days ago
Just to put numbers to your statement from an AU report:

"It says that corruption is costing Africa more than $148bn dollars a year, increasing the cost of goods by as much as 20%, deterring investment and holding back development.

Most of the cost, it says, falls on the poor."

That is about 40% of the 2010 SA GDP ($363.7 Billion). But our sheeple keep voting for Zuma.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 549 days ago
Avatar
How do people manage to compare this government and the apartheid government? The newspapers should prove once and for all that a government's protection of information undermines a constitutional democracy. I doubt that they lobby because they have the best interest of democracy at heart. They have profits in mind. As we speak; there is information already protected and classified, but this is not seem to be a threat to democracy. The USA must be the most secretive government in the world, but I don’t believe their democracy and anybody’s constitutional right is undermined as a result. The newspapers are crying like a child whose teeth-rotting candy has been taken away, the information they are crying to lay their hands on is the dirty and nasty that sells. I would wear deep black on Wednesday if Trevor Manuel decided not to publish his NPC’s National Planning document. Come Wednesday I will be wearing a bright white suit and shoes like Pastor Chris or a gown like the KKK.
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MisterWendal

Posted 549 days ago
I find it difficult to reconcile your thinking with your progressive logo. Maybe you should change your logo to a reverse evolutionary process?
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 549 days ago
MisterWendel, are you waiting for the media to help you reconcile the two?
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MisterWendal

Posted 548 days ago
The media is subject to our laws and Constitution. If they overstep their mark, they will be punished in accordance with their transgressions.
The problem is not classification of information - everyone accepts that there will be information needing protection. The ANC wants to abuse this law to hide internal corrupt wrongdoings, even going so far as to threaten citizens (doing their civic duty) with jailtime if they dare to disclose evidence of such wrongdoings.
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MattheusVan_Loggerenberg

Posted 548 days ago
@Mnbvcxz0 "The USA must be the most secretive government in the world, but I don’t believe their democracy and anybody’s constitutional right is undermined as a result."

Yeah right! America is a democracy where you can choose between two parties with virtually the same policies and the party with the richest donors usually wins. What a joke. Watch the occupy movement and how their constitutional rights are protected with mace in the face. We are Africans, not wannabe Americans.

Akihito

Posted 549 days ago
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The ANC are suffering from the reverse Robin Hood Syndrome - Steal from the poor and give to the rich. Viva, comrades, viva!
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MisterWendal

Posted 549 days ago
...more like "steal from everyone and keep for yourself"!

inkunzi

Posted 549 days ago
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What's sad is that people (including Nobel laureates) just like to debate before reading. This morning on 702 Denis Dlhlomo put it striaght to John Robbie that most of the people that are most vocal against the bill haven't even read it. The journalist himself confessed that he's debating from the opinions of other analysts. That clearly shows that the media are just peddling paranoia and their debate is not based on facts. There's a current apartheid law which needs to be replaced. If there are specific clauses that are problematic, let those be debated but this bill is needed, sorry madam Gordimer but you are wrong.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 549 days ago
True, true and true that. They have to remind us that she is a Nobel Prize person, that means absolutely nothing to the matter at hand. Mr F.W. de Klerk is a Nobel of peace person and was also a President of one of the most discriminatory and abusive governments ever conceived. How he was awarded the Prize is a question of the centrury.
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inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
@Mnbvcxz0,

Tha's a big question. But the answer lies with the great Hon. Mandela. He actually helped to fuel the wrong assertion that Mr. De klerk had a change of heart and unbanned political parties and released Mandela from prison.
That's a farce as we all know that the pressure was too much to handle and De klerk had no choice but to pave way for democracy.
See my issue's that the media doesn't educate but propel their own agenda. They needed to thoroughly look at the bill, debate it's merits and it's shortfalls. We hear nothing positive about the bill but that it will cover up corruption. Mr. Dlhomo also said that there will not be classification of corruption and the bill states that. Now as an ordinary citizen I'm left to read the bill myself and formulate my own opinion because the media doesn't want to educate me.
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KeithWoodman

Posted 548 days ago
At last someone who makes sense. All the doomsayers are just sickening.Anything just to criticise the democratically elected ANC government and let me hasten to say that it is not above criticism. Perhaps one should ask what the media has to hide that creates this paranoia. Let them challenge the law in the constitutional court and let that process decide.

jack.daniels

Posted 548 days ago
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SA is fast reverting back to its previous Pariah State - this time it will succeed - beyond all doubt

nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
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i see now the same guys fighting for meadia freedom are deleting my hard hitting views !!! what a farce !!!!! let post once again before going back to work - watch the space
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Scribbles

Posted 548 days ago
I saw your comment...

It's fairly common knowledge that racism isn't tolerated, even the South African constitution has an exemption for racist speech. You really shouldn't be surprised if your comments are deleted when you blatantly break the rules.

Oh and freedom of expression only extends to the public domain. Private areas are subject to the rules of the people, or groups, which own them. So there's no farce, just a person who isn't following said rules.
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
Holla Noms.

It's freedom of speech only when it suits them.

Let them eat cake :-).
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
Scribbles - what are you talking about? look at the comments by your people insulting Mandela - oopps i forgot , insulting a black person is part of freedom of expression. you see these are the things that make peopel liek malema darlings - you are digging your own grave chaps
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
Holla PSG - eish mfana this country is doomed. i asked the question how many of these highly opinionated white people have publicly supported economic liberation of black people? NONE, but they want us to take them seriously. mxim
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Scribbles

Posted 548 days ago
PSG,

Again, the freedom of speech is limited to the public domain. It'd be silly to expect the constitution to be enforced in a private domain. If TheTimes feels that racism has no place in their comments, then they're within their rights to remove comments which contain such.

---------------------------------------

nomakanjaane said, "Look at the comments by your people insulting Mandela."

I looked everywhere but I saw no signs of "MY" people insulting Mandela. Please don't talk nonsense.

nomakanjaane said, "Insulting a black person is part of freedom of expression."

No, it's not. And I JUST pointed this out or do you have a reading problem?

nomakanjaane said, "You see these are the things that make peopel liek malema darlings - you are digging your own grave chaps."

Pointing out the reason for your comment's deletion is making Malema a darling... Is this one of those butterfly-effect instances?
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
Scribbles - dont make your inability to read english my problem. go back to school chap - at least the ANC has introduced some no fees schools. you will learn for free - it that helps
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
Scibbles - let me give you a free lecture on the SA Constitution. it was adopted in 1996 and it has "vertical application - meaning applying between state and citizens and; horizontal application - meaning applies between organs of state inter se and private citizens iner se" especially the BILL of RIGHTS.

After getting a crash course in english language - you will understand this post. alternatively come to my farm for lessons
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@Scribbles, I've never insulted anyone and have tried to add to the debate and abiding to the guidelines for commenting yet my comments get deleted by TL.

I say let them eat cake I'll never support their Black Tuesday or Wednesday campaign they are hypocrites. They censor us yet when the thieves in parly want to impose the same rules that they gladly impose on us they cry foul.
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
PSG - you see that is the problem with this country. liberation was taken just half way and this is costing all of us today. if a CEO of a mining company earns R60 million a year for not even once visiting a mine shaft or assembly but the people who get the gold/platinum from deep underground earn R40 000 in the same year - do you think the people should or will be happy with that? it is no secrete that the NP came to power and economically empowered all whites (not sure how some never got that - maybe there was some corruption) and when black people put the ANC in power the expectation was the same - i.e. liberation from political and economic bondage. if the current system is not giving people hope they will call for other systems including nationalisation - that is fact. europe has been there so is america
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Scribbles

Posted 548 days ago
nomakanjaane,

If what you say is true, then go cause a scene in another person's home and sue them if they ask you to leave. If you're right, then you'll win big time thanks to their infringing on your rights. Even America won't enforce the freedom of speech within a private area. It's absurd.

By the way, I've just skimmed through the bill of rights and I can't find any mention of the provisions you've mentioned. They all include the public but not private domain, except in the case of dignity and such.

PSG,

I've experienced a few deletions myself. I've actually read somewhere that the admin deletes comments he finds "unintelligent". So it's likely one man rather than TheTimes itself, is censoring us. I was explaining to noms however that in this case, he broke a rule. It wasn't due to a single person's opinion.
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@Noms, what you say is so true and it is in line with Moeletsi Mbeki's Architect of Poverty.
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MattheusVan_Loggerenberg

Posted 548 days ago
Welcome to the Capitalist "free to abuse the poor" world. If the ANC leadership didn't sell out their original intentions SA would have been a very different country today.
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@Scribbles, ohhh are they now including "intellegence" as one of teh guidelines for posting a comment?

Let them have a taste of their own medicine they censor us maybe if they knew how it felt like being censored they'll know how we also feel when we get censored for no apparent reason.
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Scribbles

Posted 548 days ago
PSG,

I'm not sure the price of punishing a paper (and possibly even a single person) is worth the punishment all of South Africa might face should this bill pass...

Why not just discourage readership among friends/family, or stop buying their paper, if you disagree so strongly with their methods?
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@Scribbles, please bare with me bro English is my 50th language.

All I'm saying is that I'm not wearing any black tshirt or anything in support of these media houses that censor us and would rather support individuals or upstanding organs that I know have been against this Bill.



Avatar

Scribbles

Posted 548 days ago
nomakanjaane,

(This is a reply to the post that unfortunately just went *poof*)

You were lumping whites together which is no better than what NaidooA is doing. Why your comment got deleted and not his, is anyone's guess. Maybe nobody has reported it?

And that quote you've taken is not only out of context but you've warped it slightly. It's actually part of a paragraph which describes the process should a constitutional matter be taken to the appropriate court.

PSG,

Oh, I see. Fair enough. I'm not wearing black either -- too lazy to go out and buy one.
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ShLace

Posted 548 days ago
Your hard hitting views are as usual, off the point Noma-K.

Even though I did not see those missiles of yours, I betcha, they are all pro-ZumaANC and their thieving, and anti-exposure by the media.

Siyabonga Cwele is very mad that he was personally exposed as a husband of a convicted criminal by the media. And he takes his life as some kind of a state secret of some sort.

His wife is a convicted drug dealer, and he went and divorced her only after the exposure.....isn't that too little too late?

MattheusVan_Loggerenberg

Posted 548 days ago
Avatar
Why do some people here rant and rave about democracy when the issue here has nothing to do with being democratic or not. The issue is about freedom of information and freedom of speech. Democracy and freedom of information and freedom of speech are two different issues. Democracy is about having the freedom to choose who represents you in government and in this case it has given an ill-informed majority the freedom to choose a bunch of criminals to rule. The current government is not the one we chose last century even if it uses the same name and banner. Freedom of information and freedom of speech is about informing people better so that they can make sensible informed choices in the future. Only a government who has something to hide or is scared of losing power will want to keep information that has the potential to reveal corruption secret.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 548 days ago
Read inkunzi above; no corruption will hide behind the Act once enacted. There is a difference between information and Agenda. Information is factual, and an agenda is information in a context of promoting a certain viewpoint consistently until the readers become intellectually frail. The emerging pattern in the past few years is a media selling SA cheply abroad and locally. I remember when our media was promoting the perception that SA is the crime capital of the world. Until our friends in the US had to inject some sanity to the situation by mentioning that the US in fact has more murders per capita compared to SA. New York was once notoriously asscociated with the Mafia. Until the late '80s, New York was a really dangerous place, today it a thriving economic hub of the world. How is this possible?, because the government of the US put its foot down and insisted that reports should depict a country everybody wants to associate with. In South Africa it is quite the opposite; the media reports stories that will injure our image and drive away foreign investments and then they have the audacity to say Malema has driven billions of inward investment away. The media has done more damage than a hundrend million Malemas combined.
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MattheusVan_Loggerenberg

Posted 548 days ago
America is a bad example of a thriving country. It is deeper in debt than SA can ever be and as you state it is even worse when it comes to crime so it cannot teach us anything about that either. The question we need to ask is why the press is giving SA a bad rap overseas. Who owns the media and what is their agenda is another good question.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
Avatar
....How does one compare the (ANC) largest (dis)organised crime syndicate in power with the apartheid????.......

.......You see.....while you were entertaining your intellect reading Flash Gordon Black Edition books, Gordimer was already ANC member (may be at a time when it was a party), so she knows in own flesh what apartheid was, and because she is intelligent and educated for her own will and effort, and not because she is 'white', she realises the real nature of the ANC in power, and like in any miserable dictatorship in the world, its tricks and throwing-up inducing rampant corruption and obscene enriching of the elite, and whatever is needed to keep this ransacking under their control.

And of course shutting up the media as imperfect as it could be, it is one of the most important things they have to do if they want to survive.............
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 548 days ago
Nice comment.

Godzz001

Posted 548 days ago
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These OUTRIGHT racist comments tht u have posted here stand as evidence that rasicm is far from vanishing in this country. You even direct it to those who sacrificed for the liberation of this country. You even go as far as lebelling our heroes "Terrorists". You can deny all you want, because you indoctrinated racism from your forefathers, but you ramain RACISTS. Dont get me wrong, im not condoning the ever increasing corruptive practices by the ANC government that we, the poor, voted for, but we shouldnt fight that with racist and careless comments that can only anger those who fought against apartheid and subsequently result to more naive and stabborn orrientated corruption.
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BokFan

Posted 548 days ago
Racism and Corruption are the two great evils facing our society.

Jacob Zuma ( 2011)

Even a lameduck precedent gets it right now and then. In attacking each we must not be distracted by the other. We cannot let the racists be sanctimonious about corruption nor the corrupt ones be pious about racism.


To hell with them all
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
Bokfan, don't forget that if a "white messiah" (to quote nomakanjaaaaane) says that - it would be automatically rejected with contempt.

nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago
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you see the attitude of the press and its beneficiaries have made support this BILL just for showing that collective the right fingure

I984

Posted 548 days ago
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"PSG
Posted 7 minutes ago
@Scribbles, I've never insulted anyone and have tried to add to the debate and abiding to the guidelines for commenting yet my comments get deleted by TL.

I say let them eat cake I'll never support their Black Tuesday or Wednesday campaign they are hypocrites. They censor us yet when the thieves in parly want to impose the same rules that they gladly impose on us they cry foul. "

Then that would make you a childish and petty fool who fails or refuses to see the bigger picture here, and would much rather shoot himself in the foot, and let "the thieves in parly" reign supreme.

What would happen if we all adopt this attitude??? Where is it going to take us?

Btw I have this feeling nomakanjane who turned into nomakanjaane is about to evolve into nomakanjaaane.

P.S. Loggenberg - is that realy you???
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, we live in a democratic country now please allow me to be childish and a fool and you are free to be whatever you want to be :-).

All I'm saying is that I'll never support hypocrites "media houses" just like many people in here would say they'd never support what Julius says even though what he sayd about the majority of this country being poor is true.

The same media houses tell us that we must abide by the law wara wara what what, just last week MG obtained some documents "illegaly" about Mr Mac Maharaj aka Return of the Mac and when the current Pres obtained his spy tapes illegaly who was at teh forefront of questioning how the tapes were obtained, you guessed it the same media houses.

This to me is hypocrisy and I'd never support it.
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@PSG
In this case I hereby allow you to be childish, petty and a fool.
Btw it was not the media houses who decided to drop those charges.
Avatar

PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, thank you :-).

Now don't you see hypocrisy in how MG which is part of a media house is conducting itself in relation to how it obtained the documents?

In this case objectivity and fareness should apply.
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@ PSG
My pleasure. Just wait until they slap you with the info bill and everything else that is coming your way - and you won't have to worry about anything anymore (because you won't really know anything anymore). It will be Hakuna Matata cuban/north korean style!
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, please bare with me bro English is my 50th language.

Below is what I posted to Scribbles as well.

All I'm saying is that I'm not wearing any black tshirt or anything in support of these media houses that censor us and would rather support individuals or upstanding organs that I know have been against this Bill.

In my view what these media houses are doing is no different from what Mr Malema does. That's just my childish, petty and foolish view :-). Mr Malema makes all the right noises about standing for the poor yada yada yet his conduct says otherwise. The media houses are doing the same.
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
"All I'm saying is that I'm not wearing any black tshirt or anything in support of these media houses that censor us and would rather support individuals or upstanding organs that I know have been against this Bill. "

Good enough, but aren't they all part of the same campaign? Which by the way is not about the media houses themselves, but about each and every one of us affected, the fight against corruption and misuse of power, and our Right 2 Know.
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bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
............All crooks, thieves, rascals and other parties (ANC) dishonest members always resort to "How did you get that information?".......I still haven't seen any who commits fraud publicly so there is no need of information to be obtained.

The blindingly arrogant cadres think everyone is as stupid as the voters they get so they won't be questioned and convicted on the basis of "illegally obtained information"........

...The other reason why this 3rd world politicians snap back, is to find out who the whistle-blower is so he/she can be eliminated......'Mafia' style........But then, we have a large crime syndicate in power, have we not?.......
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, what I've been saying is currently happening. People are being censored for no apparent reason and Inkuzi's post from the moderator proves just that :-).

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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@ PSG
Did you by any chance notice this only happened after the class bully joined the thread? It is a rather regular occurrence if you ask me.

So you mean just because TL happened to remove a few of your comments - you are all against the media and journalists, and are not going to join the campaign against the Info Bill?
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, my man it's not only my comments that have been removed here.

I've been here for a while to know what has been happening here. People's accounts have been closed coz their views were not so popular with whoever the real makoya is.

I gave you an example of how hypocritical these media houses are, last week MG illegaly obtained classified documents of bribes involving Mr Maharaj and we must turn a blind eye to that no. I'll never turn a blind eye to that just like I didn't turn a blind eye when we were told by the very same media that Pres Zuma obtained his spy tapes illegaly.

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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@ PSG
My man, I am afraid you are running in a vicious circle here. Guess who wins and what that means? Complacency and maintaining the status quo. Are you happy with that?
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, I'm not sure if I'm articulating my point across to you clearly or not but my man all I'm saying is that I'm not supporting these hypocrites.

I'm all for individuals that are talking against this bill and organizations that are doing something about it as well like Freedom Under Law.

I will not allow myself to be used by these media houses for their own gains just like Mr Malema is using the poor and desperate for his own personal gain. Please note that this is not to say that what both parties are saying is false but they show huge hypocrisy.
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@ PSG
Fair enough, and I get your point. My point is that there comes a time when all these different organizations or individuals fighting for a common cause could and should join forces around what unites them and not what divides them. Cos on their own they might be too small or weak, or they might be fighting a losing battle against a huge powerful monster.
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, thank you for getting my childish, petty and foolish point :-).
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I984

Posted 548 days ago
@PSG
I hope you got mine as well. If not - go and read George Orwell's 1984 :-)
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PSG

Posted 548 days ago
@1984, I get yours as well :-).

Thank you for the recommendation.









bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
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"""""""" Until our friends in the US had to inject some sanity to the situation by mentioning that the US in fact has more murders per capita compared to SA. New York was once notoriously asscociated with the Mafia. Until the late '80s, New York was a really dangerous place, today it a thriving economic hub of the world. How is this possible?, because the government of the US put its foot down and insisted that reports should depict a country everybody wants to associate with."""""

........Are you deliberately misinforming here????????...

Do you think the yankees are so, but so stupid to control the media and have their crime statistics improved for their 'image'????????..............

The improvement comes from strict and optimal POLICING, or better explained to you: an optimally trained and motivated police force with element prepared to do their duties.....You cannot get (except for Africa) crime under control when the same authorities in charge have their fingers in the dough......Therefore shut the media and everything improves...........Get rid of your third world mentality and open your eyes.....if you want it, that is........
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MattheusVan_Loggerenberg

Posted 548 days ago
We should get over this "American does this and that" nonsense and think for ourselves.

inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
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It's sad when people that were leaving the 'Suid-Afrikaanse dream' have the audacity to tell us that we are taken back beyond apartheid. For some reason, they give an impression that apartheid was good for all of us and this is worse. Do they even know how it feels like to be denied education, denied movement, denied a right to quality health care, denied a right to opinion because of colour?
All this because of the media that's ill informing the people. Firstly they call this a secrecy bill when it's actually called a protection of state information bill. This bill talks about classified information and not corruption. Corruption can never be classified. The state has the duty to prosecute where crime is committed. There are positives but we'll never hear about them in the media. I feel for the ANC government, when they try to govern they are opposed.
As for the media, why aren't they equally vocal about racism and economic freedom as they are about the ANC government's actions and lack thereof??
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GrahamJ

Posted 548 days ago
Hi inkuzi

Who built the biggest hospital in the world at Baragwanath? Who built Africa's best road systems, school systems, water and electrical reticulation systems, communication systems, etc?

You benefited from the Nationlist government, we ALL did. We had the best infrastructure in Africa. The ANC is letting it decay whilst it strips the coffers.

Our borrowing is now 50% of GDP, who is going to pay that back? Not the ANC.
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inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
@GrahamJ,
Hi Graham, where can I start?
Look, it's all well and good that you talk about apartheid infrastructure. You are also using that to clear your conscience. The ANC is doing great things infrastructure wise as we speak. New roads, gautrain, new sports facilities, new schools, new hospitals etc. Of course, I am not naive. There's still a lot more to be done. I suggest you educate yourself and go to the public works website and see which projects have been undertaken in the last 5 years.
As for the benefits, if that were the case we wouldn't be having the issue we have now. People would be educated, the economy would have been in everyone's hands. Black people would be owning companies on the JSE etc. Apartheid (seperation) was just that, separating black people from the whites. Giving the whites the best infrastructure, education, etc. and give the black people just basics so that they don't invade whites only stuff. Even the blue train was for whites only but the gautrain is for everyone today. Don't try clear your guilt with petty issues, the real issue is access to ownership, education and freedom to chose government. We as the blacks never had that in your golden days.

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GrahamJ

Posted 548 days ago
Where did I say that everything was just? I certainly hav no guilty conscience as I was one of those educating the 'bantu' back in the 70s.

No, my friend, you live in a country that most Africans dream of living in. If you think abuse of citizenry was bad here, go and live now in Zimbabwe or Angola or Sudan. If you like comfort, give thanks that you were born here. And pray the ANC doesn't screw it up before they run out of money.
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nomakanjaane

Posted 548 days ago

nomakanjaane your comments are being deleted because you persist in launching personal attacks on other posters. Neither GrahamJ nor 1984 have reported your comments.

-Moderator

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inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
GrahamJ,

Initially I had assumed you are an educated person. But now I'm not sure. Your argument is unstructured and I still can't determine your position.
Firstly, what is bantu?
Also, one can't say it's better to have an open toilet than to be hungry. Look, bad, worse the worst is all different degrees of bad. I don't think worse is better than bad, especially for people that suffered/are still suffering bad.
you are also contradicting yourself. You say we are one of the better African countries to live in? So the ANC is doing a great job? Read the history of migration. A lot of Africans started flocking into SA after '94. My friend, for a black person South Africa was not heaven for a black person during your golden apartheid days. During those days Europeans were settling here to enjoy a superior status and access to resources.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 548 days ago
A lot of what you said has merit but I also disagree with a lot of it.

When the apartheid government produced the original media security laws, it was seen to be logical and practical to do so. The cold war was still raging and SA was a country at war. It was supposedly to stop the media from printing information about troop movements and equipment specifications - all very well and good.

It didn't stay that way. It became a weapon to bludgeon the media into being parrots for their propaganda. If it hadn't been twisted into a propaganda law then you wouldn't have so many white (and a rather startling number of black) people who didn't know how brutal apartheid was.

That thin edge of the wedge should be of concern to every single one of us.

As for economic freedom - people don't buy the newspaper to read about how Buti Mpela is doing well or how little Sammy Ndlovo intends going to university. If it bleeds it leads. You can't blame the papers for that. Its the people who buy the papers that push that particular trend

inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
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To the TL moderator;

Please can you next time just send an email to the person that posts a comment and let them know why their post is removed. I said nothing racist, nor insulted anyone yet my comment was censored.

Your comment was deleted in error. We apologise for the inconvenience. Hopefully it should be back up now.

-Moderator

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inkunzi

Posted 548 days ago
Yes TL moderator, thanks.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
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"""""" The ANC is doing great things infrastructure wise as we speak. New roads, gautrain, new sports facilities, new schools, new hospitals etc"""""""

.........Can you please tell me which hospital(s) the ANC has built in 17 years, at the level and quality of Baragwanath before the "transformation process" transformed the quality as well????/.........Can you tell which sports facilities built (the white elephants of WC don't count) so the poor children can play soccer other than in muddy, soil grounds.......

Can you please tell us what new schools built and staffed with decent and honest teachers, so students revert the abysmal failure year after year of dropouts and ignorant matrics destined to work as labourers and maids and desperately go to be duped by demagogues as Malema........

Can you tell us why the media should not report about the mafia links of the Police bosses, the generous deals for millions to "businessmen" like Shabangu; the money defrauded by ministers being sick at the golf fields and receiving full salary, even now that they are suspended.....

Can you tell us why the media should not report on the convicted drug trafficking wife of the Minister of in charge of catching dangerous spies from Zimbabwe and Antarctica ready to prepare the Invasion of the country?????....
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 548 days ago
Nice comments man, you're reading the situation well. You're right, keep it up.
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stochos

Posted 548 days ago
Well said @bis_k'hallawaya!!!!!

The ANC has treated its voters, the poor masses with absolute contempt. Virtually every senior government official has abused his position of power to loot taxpayer money.

The reason why SA is 'educating' a bunch of dunces unable to cope with the information age is that those in power (the ANC) don't view a public service job as an honour or duty but as an entitlement. After all they 'did not join the struggle to remain poor'.

The media is only highlighting those instances where there is evidence of the looting. How much more is being stolen and NOT seeing the light of day.

What we need now is true liberation. The ANC has been transformed from being the party of liberation to the the party of self-enrichment, sycophants.

We need an opposition party to challenge this lot. Come on Cosatu, break away, how much longer can you be tainted by these bunch of thieves.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
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iMnbvecxzOl

Hey man!.........They cannot beat yours:

"""""""This is the nation that knew of magmetism when science was in diapers. You brag about cellphones; we could use the ether for telephathy. You talk about space travel; we could do time travel. There were no schools when this great grandfather of mine was ruling the stars and charting their courses, our information systems were multidimensional. We were never at the mercy of any condition, my great grandfather was a true ruler, and could control his life span. Most in his generation lived for centuries. This is the history you will kill to see supressed. It's not possible anymore to mentally enslave the minds of the grand children of the stars. The truth sets poeple free.""""""

.......It seems while your forefathers were watching celestial cartoons, they did not notice the bearded portuguese sailing Africa coasts, nor the arrival of Dutch, British, Spaniards, etc.....

.....and your time travel machine probably "Made in the Cathay Empire" could not bring them to the time when they were colonized by inferior races..........NEH????........
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 548 days ago
As I said earlier on, it would be nice to meet you in person. You see, you can say any rubish to me and your comment won't mysteriously vanish. That's a priviledge you have for being born pale. You can sh4it on anything, we accept it, just like all those who came before us. But someday it will be more than enough to motivate someone to round you guys up in some event and open fire.

BarryPotgieter

Posted 548 days ago
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NO CRIME IS A STATE SECRET AND SHALL NEVER BE RECOGNIZED AS A STATE SECRET. The criminal procedures act will sentence any person withholding information of a crime committed,to be committed and such person is guilty of a crime and will be charged as a accomplice and receive the same sentence as the perpetrator and no Government or OFFICIAL,even the President, is above the law of South Africa. Theft,Bribery, Fraud and Tenderpreneur acts are criminal and NO Info.Bill can change the "The Criminal Procedures Act" of South Africa.
The Internet is POWERFULL.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 548 days ago
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iMnbvecxz0L

....Kiddie. Don't come to the kitchen if you're not prepared to face the heat.....

As I replied earlier, spare me your shebeen lines. Don't utter nonsense here and expect to be admired for that.....If you want to distort the topic of discussion with insidious remarks, falsehoods and half truths, you won't be taken seriously......

An intelligent member of the ANC as Gordimer has seen the same evil of apartheid's dictatorship in this clownish attempt of the present dictatorship to curb free information.

You can't deride her as she was already in the trenches while you were still filling up nappies, so she should know what she is talking about.......

You (deliberately or ignorantly or both) stated that New York dropped its crime rate because the government controlled the media ("...... because the government of the US put its foot down and insisted that reports should depict a country everybody wants to associate with..."").......Not everybody here will believe your horse-manure you know?...The US government won't interfere with a State, because it is not a federal crime for one and New York at the time of curbing crime was and is managed by a Major. Furthermore, for your knowledge, it was the media that managed to get hold of "classified" "secret" information
that was published, challenged and prevailed and ended in the impeachment of a President: Richard Nixon, who had to RESIGN to save face........Would your ANC be capable of that???????......
.......Nope! I don't think so either!........So, do yourself a favor and read a History book.

And, if you don't agree with my questions aimed at inkhunzi's post, then answer them for us...Let us tap your intellect.....