Editors' plea on secrecy bill
Mark this day. Depending on the actions of the 400 MPs in the National Assembly at 2pm, it will end as a day of triumph or of shame for our adolescent democracy.
Every MP who presses the green button to vote "yes" for the Protection of State Information Bill will at that moment take personal responsibility for the first piece of legislation since the end of apartheid that dismantles an aspect of our democracy - a betrayal that will haunt them forever.
The African National Congress has protested against comparisons between this vote and Black Wednesday, the banning on October 19 1977, of The World and the detention of its editor, Percy Qoboza, and staff including Aggrey Klaaste.
But this vote comes amid escalating attacks by the ANC on reporters, newspapers and the freedom of the press. Adoption of the bill could be the first step in a series of attacks, including the creation of the media appeals tribunal mooted by the ANC, that slowly strangle our freedom to know what is being done in our name.
The spreading culture of self-enrichment, either corrupt or merely inappropriate, makes scrutiny by a free media which is fuelled by whistle-blowers who have the public interest at heart more essential than ever since 1994.
If members of the ANC cannot muster the courage to defy their party's leaders and repudiate the bill, it will again - as it was under apartheid - be up to those willing to go to jail for a very long time to expose the abuse of state power.
Covering up corruption is not the primary intention of the so-called secrecy bill - it includes clauses that criminalise its misuse just to avoid embarrassment - but without the means to demonstrate that abuse, the Protection of State Information Bill will be the wall behind which much evil is hidden.
Anyone who leaks a secret, anyone who takes possession of a secret and anyone who publishes a secret will go to jail - potentially for up to 20 years. Motivation will be no mitigation.
Despite repeated assurances that the ANC intends no harm to the media and despite Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe's apparent acceptance of a public interest clause earlier this month, the party has refused to give judges the right to balance culpability against public good.
Motlanthe has acknowledged that the proposed public interest defence would have to be tested by a judge and almost every submission during parliament's public hearings on the bill called for a last-resort escape clause, but still the ANC has refused.
The bill was presented and withdrawn by Ronnie Kasrils, the minister of intelligence at the time, in 2008.
Then, last year, President Jacob Zuma's cabinet refocused the draft and sent it back to a more pliable parliament with instructions to ensure its adoption.
The ANC did accept more than 120 amendments which greatly improved the original draft. These included a narrowing of the justification for sealing state information and enhanced provisions for oversight and appeal.
But without a public interest clause, this framework for secrecy remains a massive brake on the free flow of information to the people in whose name a tightly protected elite purports to govern.
Opposition parties have declared their intention to oppose the Protection of State Information Bill today. ANC members will be required by the rules of party discipline to be present for the vote and to support it.
We, the editors of the aforementioned South African newspapers, appeal to ANC MPs who will vote today to put the future of your country ahead of your own future in the party and reject this appalling bill.
If not enough MPs have the courage to do the right thing, we urge the cabinet to use the bill's passage through the National Council of Provinces to redraft it with the inclusion of a public interest defence clause.
If it passes through the legislature in its current form, we appeal to President Zuma to exercise his right to submit the bill to the Constitutional Court for ratification before he signs it into law.
If none of these things happens, it will be up to civil society and the political opposition to ask that court to declare it the abomination it is.
Without a triumph of personal integrity over political expediency in the National Assembly this afternoon, this day will mark the beginning of the end of the freedom of information we cherish as a pillar of the constitution that guards our future.






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If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.I984
Posted 544 days agoANC vs Public Interest: Round 1
Liberal-Soul
Daffy
Posted 544 days agoMnbvcxz0
Akihito
==================================================================
Perish forbid! You and your revved-up hero, Biko, will always be there to annoy us. I shall be wearing WHITE. You voted for the corrupt comrades in parliament. Live with it.
Rightway
Posted 544 days agoOne step for the ANC on great step backward for all South Africans .
pushy
Dr.Zeek
OTTOOTTO
pushy
OTTOOTTO
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoI984
By the way - does the comment below belong to you?
"As I said earlier on, it would be nice to meet you in person. ... You can sh4it on anything, we accept it, just like all those who came before us. But someday it will be more than enough to motivate someone to round you guys up in some event and open fire."
Akihito
Mnbvcxz0
I984
Ah, so those words came from an ANC MP? Thank you. Truth is always the best.
carel.steenekamp
the_original_MommaCyndi
Which country do you live in?
In SA, if your MEC is stealing millions and you try to stop it, you are either murdered or some 'crime' is manufactured against you. Not to mention the fact that you lose your job and can't get another one.
Besides, a confidentiality agreement cannot be more powerful than the law or human conscience, Even a doctor may break patient confidentiality if they believe that a person is committing a crime
pushy
Manduvah
Akihito
Posted 544 days agoBobbyBob
Tell-It
Anikilapo
Posted 544 days agoUDFSupporter
Posted 544 days agoMnbvcxz0
BobbyBob
How can you be so wrong? How can you look yourself in the mirror and say that you uphold the values of the ANC, whilst you are in reality upholding corruption. Your ancestors will judge you by what you do today.
Daffy
Posted 544 days ago++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOL!! akihito ? where does this come from iyo!! seems you are not relevant to the topic here, be a sport buddy lets talk news censorship! and for your information not all balcks (as your comment infers) wvoted for the ANC, check the number of votes DA got in black areas. pleae lets keep race ot of the topic.
Akihito
nkosipeter
Posted 544 days agoToday it will signal its moral and idealogical death.
The old ANC we knew it, is no more.
BobbyBob
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoRECOGNISING the importance of information to the national security, territorial
integrity and well-being of the Republic;
ACKNOWLEDGING the harm of excessive secrecy;
AFFIRMING the constitutional framework for the protection and regulation of access
to information;
DESIRING to put the protection of information within a transparent and sustainable
legislative framework;
AIMING to promote the free flow of information within an open and democratic society
without compromising the security of the Republic,
Mnbvcxz0
piexie
Mnbvcxz0
Somnambulist
Its a shame that the poor, uneducated, jobless masses who vote for these corrupt, greedy, soulless politicians in the ANC dont even have an idea what's going on... They just keep on getting poorer and dying younger, after dreadfully harsh lives. Their filthy rich ANC "representatives" on the gravy train dont think twice about the bribes they take, the power they abuse, and the public funds they mismanage.
This bill serves only the Master, instead of the Servants... As always.
BobbyBob
I will not insult you by suggesting that this bill can be used to hide corruption, you know that already. Neither will I insult you by explaining that corruption is the deathknell for a nation.
What I will say to you is that when you look back and see the damage , poverty , misery and hunger it caused , that you acknowledge that you are to blame for it.
Dr.Zeek
Daffy
Posted 544 days ago++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
what did you mean by this then? why not say Nadin Gordimer is a revved up herione?
i dont stone people and i will not allow you to lead me to your den. comment closed! im no racist we all are racist, only if we want to act in that manner!!
Mnbvcxz0
LooseCanon
SuiGeneris
Posted 544 days agoBobbyBob
Somnambulist
I feel ashamed every day by the stories that surface about what ANC members keep themselves busy with, instead of working towards a better future for their poor, impoverished supporters... This secrecy bill only serves to aid Zuma's ANC in covering up their shameful activities.
danny.archer1
Mandela betrays the country with his continued silence.
Somnambulist
PSG
If they can do that or his office can do that on his behalf what's stopping them from issuing a statement about corruption in the country knowing what he stood for just like the same was done about two weeks ago?
danny.archer1
He's frail not dead. He still has time to release memoirs and paint pictures. It would take 5 minutes of his time to release a statement. My gran is 89 and is learning to use an e-reader tablet. Age is not an excuse. His silence is damning.
danny.archer1
PSG
Kunjani kodwa mfana :-)?
89 is a very good innings :-)..
danny.archer1
Yes, she has had a good innings. I don't think she will score a century though.
PSG
89 is a very very good inning, have faith mfana she might just pull it off.
Somnambulist
@PSG: A speech concocted by some glorified secretary in Madiba's name for a BEAUTY PAGEANT? You REALLY want to bring that in? Hahahahaha!
danny.archer1
PSG
Why would you say Zelda is a glorified secretary?
My man, if Chief Mandla Mandela comes out and says that I was given this message by my grandfather to read out to you why should we not believe it as such?
Yes I want to bring it in coz if a speech from him can be read out to the entire world in England about Miss World, if his wife Mrs Gracia Mandela can read out a message from him during his annual lecture what is stopping him or people that represent him from issuing a statement against corruption in SA?
Somnambulist
@PSG: Thanks my man... Appreciated! If Zuma's ANC showed such respect for their elders, Madiba's ANC, we wouldn't be here, fighting to maintain our freedom. I unfortunately don't think any relation to Madiba can have an impact delivering a message, unless it comes from the man himself... Just like you can't expect Ziggy Marley to pull off a show like his father Bob Marley could, or Sean Lennon trying to pull of a show like John Lennon could... They just dont have the "gravity" needed.
Anyway, we are all on the same side: concerned about the future of this great country. We just disagree on what can realistically be done to address our shared concerns. All the best for you guys.
PSG
My man I think you are missing mine and Danny’s point. We are not saying that he should fight or take on the current government. We are saying that in the same breath that he can issue statements about other issue he can also land us a helping hand by putting his voice behind the corruption fight.
Relations to Madiba have had huge impact ask the Nelson Mandela’s Children Fund how much it has received from corporates by mere fact that this children’s fund sent out letters asking for donations using Madiba’s name.
Ohhh before I forget even the arms dealers donated to the Nelson Mandela’s Children Fund :-).
MohammedAbdulRahman
Posted 544 days agoMohammedAbdulRahman
Kambula
Posted 544 days agopushy
Posted 544 days agoArgus
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoLet's engage on something we all have read before:
The objects of this Act are to—
(a) regulate the manner in which State information may be protected;
(b) promote transparency and accountability in governance while recognising
that State information may be protected from disclosure in order to safeguard
the national interest of the Republic;
(c) establish general principles in terms of which State information may be
handled and protected in a constitutional democracy;
(d) provide for a thorough and methodical approach to the determination of which
State information may be protected;
(e) provide a regulatory framework in terms of which protected information is
safeguarded in terms of this Act;
(f) define the nature and categories of information that may be protected from
destruction, loss or unlawful disclosure;
(g) provide for the classification and declassification of classified information;
(h) create a system for the review of the status of classified information by way of
regular reviews and requests for review;
(i) regulate the accessibility of declassified information to the public;
(j) harmonise the implementation of this Act with the Promotion of Access to
Information Act and the National Archives and Records Service of South
Africa Act, 1996 (Act No. 43 of 1996);
(k) establish a National Declassification Database of declassified information that
will be made accessible to members of the public;
(l) criminalise espionage and activities hostile to the Republic and provide for
certain other offences and penalties; and
(m) repeal the Protection of Information Act, 1982 (Act No. 84 of 1982).
RogueTrooper
Today marks the 1st step in the devolution of RSA...and you are party to that...nay you are an agent of the destruction of this wonderful country. I hope you can live with that in the years to come when the true nature of this bill becomes evident!!!
Kambula
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agowell-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;
‘‘State information’’ means information generated, acquired or received by
organs of state or in the possession or control of organs of state;
‘‘State operations’’ means any function, activity or process conducted by an organ
of state which is authorised by law and is in accordance with the Constitution;
‘‘State security matter’’ includes any matter which is dealt with by the Agency or
‘‘classified information’’ means the State information that has been determined
under this Act or the former Minimum Information Security Standards guidelines
to be information that may be afforded heightened protection against unlawful
disclosure;
‘‘commercial information’’ means commercial, business, financial or industrial
information held by or in the possession of an organ of state;
which relates to the functions of the Agency or to the relationship existing between
any person and the Agency;
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoinformation, and includes—
(a) a head of an organ of state; or
(b) any official to whom the authority to classify State information has been
delegated in writing by a head of an organ of state;
‘‘classification of information’’ means a process used to determine—
(a) the level of protection assigned to certain information; and
(b) the manner in which such information may be accessed and classified in terms
of section 15;
‘‘classified information’’ means the State information that has been determined
under this Act or the former Minimum Information Security Standards guidelines
to be information that may be afforded heightened protection against unlawful
disclosure;
BobbyBob
I will not insult you by suggesting that this bill can be used to hide corruption, you know that already. Neither will I insult you by explaining that corruption is the deathknell for a nation.
What I will say to you is that when you look back and see the damage , poverty , misery and hunger it caused , that you acknowledge that you are to blame for it.
Dr.Zeek
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoJonos
Dr.Zeek
BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES
Posted 544 days agoThe problem in our country is that most media houses are used to oppose the government as they were used by the National Security Management Services, Civil Cooperation Beraue and Joint Management Committees to undermine the liberation struggle which was lead by the very ANC that is in question today. If you have read what was Mr. Don Matera’s respond regarding the use of the "BLACK TUESDAY" concept, you will understand that we are still a really divided society which is still possessed by the passed and pretending as if the ANC is the problem.
What is the real problem in this country is the fact reconciliation was one sided and those who did not truly embrace that processes held back to their old ways of doing things in the name of the rule of law.
Mark my words in this country we still live under the threat of fear of the unknown and all other negative attitudes towards each other, no matter what. Please anyone who responds must not throw insults at me so that we can engage to demonstrate to the people of this world that we are real matured CITIZENS who can share ideas without fear of being harassed as we are all saying we want free flow of information?
the_original_MommaCyndi
You are trying to make this into a 'black' vs 'white' scenario and it isn't. This has absolutely nothing to do with colour coding. There are more black journalists than white journalists and they ALL disagree with being muzzled. The vast majority of the editors are decidedly 'non-white' and they are all standing together against this.
You are trying to split people when, in fact, this issue has unified people in a way that I have not seen since the SWC,
Mnbvcxz0
BobbyBob
This is what this bill does.
BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES
Readers are leaders. You can not claim a document from an authorised covert operation aimed at protectic the interests of the State, and want to have access to it without following the proper process and demand that by saying MEDIA FREEdom in under threat?
I984
Posted 1 hours ago
Why are you attempting to racialise this? "
Well, are there any other winning cards left to defend the indefensible?
If it is not along racial lines - it will be antagonising different social groups.
BobbyBob
Posted 544 days agoToday sees that hapenning. Read together with the regulations permitting government employees to have business interests that can conduct business with the state, corruption clearly is endemic.
SuiGeneris
Posted 544 days agoI can see from your comments that you are still very wet behind the ears, so think about this scenario....
You have two teenage daughters....the one is having a sexual relationship with a boy and her sister knows about it, but she doesn't tell you because she made a secrecy pact with her sister.
One day you realise that your daughter is 6 months pregnant, but it is much too late now to do anything about it.....
If her sister told you about this activity long ago, you would have been able to take action prevent this...
Mnbvcxz0
the_original_MommaCyndi
I seem to remember that we have a 'rule' in the 'house' of SA that tender corruption is not acceptable. Hows that workin' ?
BobbyBob
SuiGeneris
Perhaps, only perhaps, you will wake up one day and then you will be a very disappointed man !
BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES
Readers are leaders. You can not claim a document from an authorised covert operation aimed at protectic the interests of the State, and want to have access to it without following the proper process and demand that by saying MEDIA FREEdom in under threat?
BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES
Posted 544 days agothe_original_MommaCyndi
Now how, exactly, do you 'steal' something that you already own?
MohammedAbdulRahman
Mnbvcxz0
organs of state or in the possession or control of organs of state,
The citizens don't own state generated information. Information relating to corruption is not state information.
‘‘State operations’’ means any function, activity or process conducted by an organ
of state which is authorised by law and is in accordance with the Constitution;
Corruption is not State operation and is therefore not protected by the Bill. The press is still very much free to expose State Official corruption provided they get the information legally, or through a permission from Court.
the_original_MommaCyndi
Of course they don't say 'state vs state' because it is against an individual. This has nothing to do with individuals this has to do with the citizenry as a whole - the citizens being the employers of the government who are, therefore, our employees.
You are also being disingenuous as the bill does NOT make any provision for public interest - that being the crux of why everyone is against this. State information on how and why they spend our money is most definitely our business - especially if it is unwisely or corruptly spent. How much and where (for example) the police headquarters are could be, under the current wording of the bill, be deemed to be outside of the public interest and we wouldn't know about Roux making a killing at our expense
Its also laughable that they go to court to get permission to get a document as they will instantly be prosecuted for knowing about the contents of the document (you don't go to court to get a document on something that is not news worthy). That means that the media either has to go to court for EVERY piece of information coming out of the government or they face the likelihood of being jailed.
Mnbvcxz0
well-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;
Lets read concerning national interest: (1) The national interest of the Republic includes, but is not limited to—
(a) all matters relating to the advancement of the public good; and
(b) all matters relating to the protection and preservation of all things owned or
maintained for the public by the State.
Corruption is not public interest and its not an official policy of the state. Corruption is not an advancement of the public good. Corruption cannot be protected by this Bill (or soon to be Act).
The newspapers should get lawyer to help them read these things instead of speading misinformation.
Scribbles
Duzula
Posted 544 days agoSomnambulist
Posted 544 days agoSomnambulist
Posted 544 days agoI984
LOL! Man, I give it to you, how did you manage to do that?
Somnambulist
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoArgus
Dr.Zeek
Mnbvcxz0
Dr.Zeek
Nice company.
Just remember, the Nats also thought that they were chosen by God to rule for a 1,000 years...
Argus
Rightway
Posted 544 days ago....
@Mnbvcxz0
You are a betrayer and traitor of the people of South Africa if you support this draconian Bill.
If your hero Zuma 783 commits adultery (not if but when) and cheats on his many wife,s it will cause him embarrassment. This knowledge will also be censored from the media.
No one has the right to take our enjoyment away of seeing and reading how a, should be respected leader, acts like a total tribal buffoon. Laughter is medicine and the Doctor has ordered that we take it. The ANC are the source of jokes. Maybe because they are all clowns.
RogueTrooper
Posted 544 days agoToday marks the 1st step in the devolution of RSA...and you (supporters of this bill) are party to that...nay you are an agent of the destruction of this wonderful country. I hope you can live with that in the years to come when the true nature of this bill becomes evident!!!
Mnbvcxz0
Please read the preamble to the Bill and the purpose of the Bill in Section 1. We are inherently genius but misinformation (I don't know the source) means that our God given intelligence is abused by those who seek to benefit from our confusion. In information Systems they have: input>processing>output. Input is what you get from the media, processing is your God given thinking talents, output is the media hopes for.
Dr.Zeek
RogueTrooper
The ANC will be the ruin of this country...the rot has begun and this bill is the 1st step towards ruin....MARK MY WORDS...we will rue this bill in years to come!!!
Tell-It
the_original_MommaCyndi
Posted 544 days ago‘‘public interest’’ means all those matters that constitute the common good,
well-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;"
....... and there is no provision in the bill to protect this.
"Lets read concerning national interest: (1) The national interest of the Republic includes, but is not limited to—
(a) all matters relating to the advancement of the public good; and
(b) all matters relating to the protection and preservation of all things owned or
maintained for the public by the State.
..... and ho determines if the shady deal is for the 'advancement of public good' or should be kept secret?
"Corruption is not public interest and its not an official policy of the state. Corruption is not an advancement of the public good. Corruption cannot be protected by this Bill (or soon to be Act)."
..... and if we can't have access to the information then how do we know if it constitutes corruption or not?
"The newspapers should get lawyer to help them read these things instead of speading misinformation".
---- how is it 'misinformation'? The fact of the matter is that they can easily bury corruption within the acres of documents they deem to be secret and the media would never find them. Even stuff like the President's travels is now considered 'secret' because someone in a time machine might go back a year and assassinate the silly bugger. The fact that his office actually tells journalists where he will be going before hand is neither here nor there to our Minister of Defence, That seriously implies that there is a cover up in the costing. Should (for example) the media find out that there has been a huge invoice that is suspect, then that suspicious payment cannot be reported on as reporting on the President's travel is now a criminal offence,
There is zero control of what may or may not be classified and, as such, things like minister's staying in 5 star hotels or travelling to meet up with the jailed girlfriend overseas can be classified at the minister's discretion. Now how exactly does that benefit the country?
Scribbles
Mispending, or the like, doesn't automatically constitute "corruption" and it can be argued that it is within the "public's good" that the public do not know of any "mishaps". It doesn't matter how you spin it, this bill effectively muzzles our media. It allows the government the use of law to arrest or harass journalists, especially those who expose suspect acts, while allowing little to no avenues for mitigation. Government already harasses our journalists without the need for law so can you imagine what they might do should this bill pass?
SuiGeneris
You are wasting your time with this mnbvcxz0
He is either completely delusional or he is getting paid by the anc to post drivel here in the comment section !
the_original_MommaCyndi
Of course he is being paid.
We all know that Loot Freely has a full staff on here.
Problem is that if we don't disprove his propaganda then we are in danger of being mistaken as giving it tacit approval
Dr.Zeek
Rightway
Posted 544 days ago22 November 2011 will be known as a day of infamy when we lost our right to a free media all because of corruption that needs to be hidden.
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoperson which, if disclosed, could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or
physical safety or general welfare of an individual. It’s amazing how a media hype can so paralyse, and make people feel vulnerable and so naked. The truth is that you have nothing to fear but fear itself. Do a bit of reading tonight, switch off the TV, that’s empowering.
the_original_MommaCyndi
Zuma's infidelities are not state information AT THE MOMENT.
Should the Ministry of the Presidency decide that it would reflect SA and the President in an unflattering light then the Minister can MAKE IT a state secret.
The state had no logical interest in protecting Zuma from the law but it did that anyhow. You cannot possibly believe that they wouldn't stoop to using this bill as a political tool as well.
May I strongly suggest that, tonight when your TV is off, you read 'Total Onslaught'.
NeoBlack
Posted 544 days agoYou called this upon yourselves. So expect no sympathy from some of us.
The problem with the SA media is that it behaves as if it is the only legitimate voice of the people. It has for years pushed an arrogant, anti-ANC agenda, and yet it decries foul when the government respond in a similar manner.
The editors of newspapers are there to advance their own careers and opolitical motives, and this has little to do with the so-called public interest. Which public are talking about here? Politics of 'victimhood have no place in our society.
the_original_MommaCyndi
I can't, however, agree that a muzzle is the solution. The granting of more powers of censure to the Ombudsman would have been a far better way to go.
We got a President who's only qualification was 'victimhood' so it obviously has a HUGE place in our society.
A newspaper's job is to inform and in order to do that, they need advertising revenue. In order to get advertising revenue, they need to have a readership. In order to get a readership, they need to produce news that the readers wish to purchase. In other words, don't shoot the messenger
Dr.Zeek
Do you even understand that a free press is a fundamental cornerstone of a democracy?
THis Bill undermines some of the most important rights in our Constitution...yet, you choose to make it an "anti-anc" argument. WAKE UP!
I984
The Empire Strikes Back, huh?
NeoBlack
I personally do not see the bill seeing any light of day at the end. However, one is used to our reactionary media and its political cohorts behaving as if south africa is under siege.
Rightway
Posted 544 days ago...
Well put Desmond. If only you and Mandela were younger. You could have saved South Africa from the new ANC.
@Mnbvcxzo
Zuma and his cabal of moral decrepitants are public servants and figures. We have a right to know what the men and woman who are governing our country are getting up to. Where are you from? The moon? The past? Russia? Cuba? North Korea? Zimbabwe?
Mnbvcxz0
Dr.Zeek
POST94
POST94
Posted 544 days agoHaving said that, the recent MG Report on Mac Maharaj probably added fuel to the already enraging fire of non-accountability of the media. How dare does one use evidence provided ON-CAMERA without due authority? What next? Statements made by minors on-camera, all in the name of Public Interest?
Dr.Zeek
POST94
Of course, they wouldnt dare but the intent to publish was there. The story was already put to bed.
But imagine if it wasnt Mac Maharaj, who knows his constitutional rights and has legal power and money to stop-dead such unlawful and shameful journalistic practises?
the_original_MommaCyndi
Not printing anything?
There are already laws about reporting on minors and there are laws which allow a person to sue for a retraction as well as money should their individual rights be infringed.
inkunzi
Post '94 is correct. If this wasn't Maharaj or anyone with power and money it would have been published. They already published blakcened parts of it, that's more than an intention. But he's suing them for ILLEGALLY OBTAINING classified information. Remember the Murdoch case? I don't believe that the media can abide by the law by itself. The M+G editors knew that they first had to request permission from the NDPP (Menzi Simelane) to publish the info but they didn't bother. Mac had to act to stop them from doing so. The M+G failed to follow the law and I say they must be sued.
the_original_MommaCyndi
I still don't see how Mac can sue them.
The information didn't belong to him, it belonged to the Prosecutor. By rights, it should be the state who does an enquiry to find out who leaked the information and to give a valid reason why the information is not in the public interest and, therefore, subject to censure from the Ombudsman.
I do feel that the media is its own worst enemy in this as they spend an awful lot of time shooting themselves in the foot. The problem is that a full on muzzle is not the way to go as history has taught us
inkunzi
Finally something you and I agree on. They shoot themselves in the foot all the time as you put it, correctly so I must add. So what do you suggest be done? The media can't police themselves so what do we do? Murdoch is the prime example why we need law. Wikileaks is another example of a delinquent that publishes classified information about state diplomacy, that's wrong. Corruption yes, crime yes but not genuine state and personal secrets.
BobbyBob
Posted 544 days agoThis is what this bill does
inkunzi
Posted 544 days agoThe bill states that no act of crime, maladministration, corruption etc can be classified under this bill. That's a fact and people pretend they don't know it's there or they haven't read the bill. The media needs to be policed, Murdoch is a glaring example why the media can't police itself. The next thing children's on camera testimonies can be published in the name of public interest? No! We need the law and the media and other organisation should be working with the law makers instead of throwing their toys out and not pointing out specific sections of the bill that are problematic. I'd support them if I knew exactly which sections must be amended and not this protest against the whole bill. We need a new one..
the_original_MommaCyndi
Read the news papers and you will see which sections it is
(hint: Dr Zeek has mentioned it (in capitals) on a number of strings)
inkunzi
Please, you should also read. I said, the bill states that crime, maladministration, corruption and any crime related activity cannot be classified under this bill. That then means they are fighting for nothing. They want the public information clause and they want to rid of the jail terms. Surely state security info is of public interest but it cannot be divulged. Corruption will still be exposed and if someone classifies it, they can be prosecuted using the very same bill! As they are not allowed to classify fraud and corruption using the proposed law. So I ask, what's the farce???
the_original_MommaCyndi
You forget that I lived through apartheid. I'm fully aware of how a seemingly innocent law can be used to strangle the media.
Who is going to prosecute the people who use the bill to hide corruption? The same people who are millionaires from the arms deal? Don't forget, politics is a nasty game in which getting leverage on your colleagues and opponents is the main game played.
inkunzi
Here you disappoint me. Who prosecuted Cwele's wife? Who prosecuted Jackie Selebi? Who prosecuted Jacob Zuma, who will prosecute Malema? Those state organs will continue doing their job. Have faith in the NPA, the SIU, The Hawks, the Police (although I also have little faith in the men in blue myself), the public protector and importantly, our judiciary. The are doing their job. Don't be like the media and instil fear, doom and gloom in the citizens of this country. We shouldn't be an alarmist state, a swart gevaar state.
Tell-It
Mtho'engenanqondo
Posted 544 days agothe_original_MommaCyndi
Good grief! What a brilliant disguise !
bis_k'hallawaya
RedCoat
There should be a minimum IQ to post on these treads!
Mnbvcxz0
Mtho'engenanqondo
the_original_MommaCyndi
Mtho'engenanqondo
The new Capital City Mayor will make the name City of Tshwane official by end of next year......slowly but surely we will also make it illegal to register unAfrican names in our Home Affairs database.....rather than being arrogant about the use of your language, start looking for appropriate indeginous names, like; Gundwane, Mbiba, Mgodoyi etc!
the_original_MommaCyndi
It was a genuine question. I have no idea what you were trying to say.
The name given to me at my ukuthomba is uJikanelanga so I'm covered :)
staren
Now truly, that is pathetic... or is it perhaps apathetic?
RogueTrooper
RogueTrooper
Mtho'engenanqondo
We've tried every option Rogue, but you guys just dont get it. We've protested peacefully, we used the bible, we established a guerilla army, we threw stones and bricks at you, we democratised the country, we reconciled, we robbed you, we reformed society...we tried everything! Whats left is to systemically assimilate you to our way of life, that way total transformation can be attained. I mean we already have control over the levers of power, we can drive an unpurturbed social engineering project. One of its aim being "unwhitening" you, stripping you off your identity! Piet Van Rensburg shall be Gundwane Mgodini, give him a goverment house that will make it very difficut to practise his whiteness.....goooi in some voddooo indocrination and an education that crafts what we desire out of him as a goverment. We can do it!
RogueTrooper
I sincerely hope that the former of the 2 notions is actually were your headspace is at...
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agoLet them confess under section28 in camera.
Releasing secret tapes when convenient has also helped in the past.
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 544 days agoMnbvcxz0
OTTOOTTO
Posted 544 days agothe_original_MommaCyndi
The northern hemisphere is going up in economic smoke, there is a 'war on terror' and the American puppets in the middle east are either ousted or under threat - I think the CIA has a few bigger fish than Zuma's latest infidelity to worry about.
OTTOOTTO
the_original_MommaCyndi
Bottom line is that this bill has nothing at all to do with the CIA or any other boogymen out there. It has to do with legislating the media into silence
OTTOOTTO
the_original_MommaCyndi
how on earth would the amount spent on a police head quarters building cause a bomb blast?
Okay, I'll admit that I was angry about it, as I had a lot of respect for Cele, but I never considered bombing anything.
OTTOOTTO
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agoHe would simply bomb the printing press.
RedCoat
Posted 544 days agoOr better still, who here feels it is in the publics interest to know who has been corrupted?
Well considering the deal was aimed at the defense of our country, you can be damn sure ALL information is going to be classifed a state secret.
Mnbvcxz0
the_original_MommaCyndi
And how would you know that the list has been classified? The media will not be allowed to tell you that the list has been classified or they will be jailed.
That is what we are trying to explain. Good intentions or not, this bill (in its current form) can be misused.
Mnbvcxz0
the_original_MommaCyndi
Okay, now how do you know you want clarification on that piece of information?
Did someone tell you that information was pertinent? If so, then you have been told about information that is classified and you can be arrested.
Catch 22
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agoAll these state secrets to protect.
CIA...FBI...CIO...KGB...
Jumping at shadows?
Bwahahaha
OTTOOTTO
WelkomHorizon
Posted 544 days agolamelooser
Then Zuma's son and Mandela's son will also be breathing sighs of relief, as their corrupt activities get masked under the veil of state security.
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agolamelooser
Posted 544 days agoHowever there will still be much reporting on how Mr Nhlope stole R50 from the home affairs cash till. The swine. And boy, will they throw the book at him.
Somnambulist
Posted 544 days agoFreedom of speech is no threat to the security of a government whose officials conduct themselves with the best interest of their country at heart... After the last arms deal debacle, please forgive us for not having any faith in any bill that could have even the slightest possibility of hiding corruption, mismanagement of public funds, or misappropriation.
Also, note how Presidential Spokesperson Mac Maharaj is not commenting on whether the allegations are true or false (news24.com/Multimedia/South-Africa/Mac-Maharaj-interviewed-on-eNews-20111121)... Merely that the information, from which the allegations were formed, was obtained unlawfully. Just because someone gets off on a technicality from being prosecuted, doesn't make them innocent.
Without freedom of speech, you and I cannot even voice these opinions of ours, so do not take it for granted.
BokFan
Posted 544 days agoThe rape of the nation will now happen under a blanket of secrecy.
What a shame on us all that we can be bullied by thugs and criminals into losing our self respect.
But it aint over
ALUTA CONTINUA
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agoBokFan
staren
the_original_MommaCyndi
..... the opportunities to lie like your feet stink ain't too few and far between either
RedCoat
The best of luck..............Hope there is enough work for you in the 'media of the future'.
danny.archer1
Posted 544 days agoOTTOOTTO
danny.archer1
Howzit moron. The difference back then, was that the black middle class had to choose between a supposedly white, racist party and poor service delivery and corruption. in 2014, they will be choosing between a supposedly white, racist party and poor service delivery, corruption and their very FREEDOM. The ANC will lose power in 2019 after dropping to the mid-50 percents in 2014.
BokFan
Hi there. I take it you dont mind how much money the likes of Cele, Shitsheka and so on steal. Or how much crarp arms deals and crooked tenders cost the nation. Or how many children die walking in search of food because their mom has no ID since the useless ones at home affairs have failed her. Or how many illegal immigrants and criminals are buying houses in Alex. Or whether schoodl books have arrived in the ECape on time. Or........
These things dont matter to you for some reason since you feel they should be hidden. I'd like to understand why.
OTTOOTTO
danny.archer1
Are you OBE educated or was "Liberation before Education" your alma mater? Methinks the latter. I shifted no goal posts. I said the ANC would see their arses in 2014. ie. They will lose a lot of votes, as elucidated in my follow up post.
OTTOOTTO
OTTOOTTO
danny.archer1
ht tp: //ww w .google.co.za/# hl=en&cp=25&gs_id=3o&xhr=t&q=%22black+middle+class+vote%22&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=%22black+middle+class+vote%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=1e94d75b13e749d8&biw=1285&bih=894
Once you've looked through the search results, go play outside with the rest of the children. The grownups are busy.
BokFan
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Working for the UN is nice. I am glad you have a job. Many in SA dont. Some government lackey could prevent critical analysis of the problem by withholding information because it may have negative economic or social consequences.
And you feel thats A OK.
'sfunny I thought the UN had higher standards than that. But I suppose driving a minibus taxi in a blue hat is the same as driving a minibus taxi without one.
BobbyBob
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 544 days agothe_original_MommaCyndi
Got to go now so I can earn some tax rands.
Enjoy :)
BobbyBob
You're hardly the one to judge clarity of thinking. Get that black suit so long.
SpellJammer
Posted 544 days agoOTTOOTTO
SpellJammer
RogueTrooper
Back to you comment...agreed 100% and that is why we are as vocal as what we are on this topic...we realise that we are now on the wrong side of the slippery slope with regards to the government policy on civil liberties. This, if not resisted with intent and purpose shall mark the beginning of a slow to start but rapidly increasing downward spiral and as you say ...we will not silently into that dark night without a fight!!!
EVIL HAPPENS WHEN GOOD MEN DO NOTHING!!!
SpellJammer
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agoThis is critical.
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agoTIA
bis_k'hallawaya
Posted 544 days agoThe "to protect us" justification is so absurd and false tantamount to an insult to the intelligence.......The comparison with say, publishing details like the testimony of a child in camera related to common crime as as a reason for the "Lawghable Law"is such a c.rap......
Why must we be kept in darkness on the fabulous tender deals enriching known crooks from the ANC or any other party, or the excesses of major and minor officials in living in luxury at expenses of the tax payer???......the still paying convicted and suspended on investigation ex-Ministers.......the involvement of officials spouses in drug trafficking???.........the bribes paid by "oppressor" transnationals to corrupt officers that then launder that money in overseas accounts where the family pet is the holder????..........
......Do they think we are just as stupid???.........
lamelooser
Posted 544 days agolamelooser
Posted 544 days agoI guess they keep him in the dark these days.
Nelsom, "Errr where is my daily news papers and my slippers?"
Secretary, "Sorry my dear, the delivery boy is sick again." "Oh look the grand children are playing ring-a-ring of rosies in the garden, let's join them."
Nelsom, "Ah!! Wonderful, I just wish I could rememper who I voted for."
Rightway
ThePurplePimp
Posted 543 days agostaren
skhokho21
Posted 543 days agoThey can say what ever they want, gov don`t give tenders, its me & them who works in these depts and we will be sorted out by the police for corruption including those ministers, premiers that send their advisers to be part of panels on tender committees and force people to give tenders to their preferrd souls.
Mr President plz be a leader, our house need a leader, show yourself.
staren
PSG
Posted 543 days agoWhat’s of interest is that we have 400 MPs in parly with the following breakdown:
African National Congress (ANC) 264
Democratic Alliance (DA) 67
Congress of the People (COPE) 30
Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) 18
Independent Democrats (ID) 4
United Democratic Movement (UDM) 4
Vryheidsfront Plus (VF Plus) 4
African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP) 3
United Christian Democratic Party (UCDP) 2
Pan Africanist Congress of Azania (PAC) 1
Minority Front (MF) 1
Azanian People's Organisation (AZAPO) 1
African People's Convention (APC) 1
People can draw their own conclusions based on the above.
Tell-It
skhokho21
Posted 543 days agoRogueTrooper
You will look back someday and think to yourself...how did we get here? While queuing for bread and water with your government food stamps as you gaze into the eyes of a person who was once a school friend who shared your lunch because he had none...only difference is that today he wears state issued body armour, wields a truncheon and has no compuncture to crack your skull open if so ordered should you show the slightest instance of dissent.
This is how the corruption of power begins...they slowly but surely strip all your liberties away, all the while telling you that it is for your own good...after all you gave them the mandate to do your thinking through your vote. They are the party, they know best!
Enjoy the freedom you have today for it will not last!
Mnbvcxz0
Tell-It
Posted 543 days ago"The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings' (this relates to the bill itself as well as the ANC's secret links to arms dealers and other murky organisations and the secret organisations that fund and control those arms dealers).
"For we are opposed around the world by a MONOLITHIC and RUTHLESS conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence — on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.
"Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match. - John Fitzgerarld Kennedy in his 1961 address to the ANPA(American Newspaper Publishers Association)
Just two years after that speech and many others the greatest leader of our time laid his life down on the altar of freedom and human sovereignty and was assassinated by the sniper bullet of a gunamn said to 'be working alone'. People wake up! This Bill is only a drop in the ocean and ANC corruption is only a minute part of this cover-up. Please broaden your worldview and learn to see the bigger picture or the wider spectrum. The media is being gagged in almost every country in the world at an alarming rate over the past 10 years this problem is not unique to SA and is not an 'ANC corruption problem'. WAKE UP!!
'
Mnbvcxz0
Posted 543 days agoHi--Jack
Separation of powers. Party and State ?
Officals in Government are so corrupt there are not enough paper to print it on.
Malnourished you say. Uninformed I say. We have riots in the streets, politely so if you compare them to North Africa.
Why ?
Because at least the media tells us why.
Unending corruption, that's why.
You support the Bill.
Just pay your taxes, and de-register from this site.
Pay your taxes, pay, pay, pay........
the_original_MommaCyndi
So far, you have accused almost everyone of being ignorant on the issue but have failed to 'educate' a single one of us
Hi--Jack
Please post Reply to the last post and you are free to Expre$$ you're vilest thoughts.
Courtesy of the Free Speech Movement of Free the Hi--Jacks--from the Moderators.
Please post:
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