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Sun May 19 13:08:40 SAST 2013

Editors' plea on secrecy bill

Times LIVE | 22 November, 2011 00:03

Mark this day. Depending on the actions of the 400 MPs in the National Assembly at 2pm, it will end as a day of triumph or of shame for our adolescent democracy.

Every MP who presses the green button to vote "yes" for the Protection of State Information Bill will at that moment take personal responsibility for the first piece of legislation since the end of apartheid that dismantles an aspect of our democracy - a betrayal that will haunt them forever.

The African National Congress has protested against comparisons between this vote and Black Wednesday, the banning on October 19 1977, of The World and the detention of its editor, Percy Qoboza, and staff including Aggrey Klaaste.

But this vote comes amid escalating attacks by the ANC on reporters, newspapers and the freedom of the press. Adoption of the bill could be the first step in a series of attacks, including the creation of the media appeals tribunal mooted by the ANC, that slowly strangle our freedom to know what is being done in our name.

The spreading culture of self-enrichment, either corrupt or merely inappropriate, makes scrutiny by a free media which is fuelled by whistle-blowers who have the public interest at heart more essential than ever since 1994.

If members of the ANC cannot muster the courage to defy their party's leaders and repudiate the bill, it will again - as it was under apartheid - be up to those willing to go to jail for a very long time to expose the abuse of state power.

Covering up corruption is not the primary intention of the so-called secrecy bill - it includes clauses that criminalise its misuse just to avoid embarrassment - but without the means to demonstrate that abuse, the Protection of State Information Bill will be the wall behind which much evil is hidden.

Anyone who leaks a secret, anyone who takes possession of a secret and anyone who publishes a secret will go to jail - potentially for up to 20 years. Motivation will be no mitigation.

Despite repeated assurances that the ANC intends no harm to the media and despite Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe's apparent acceptance of a public interest clause earlier this month, the party has refused to give judges the right to balance culpability against public good.

Motlanthe has acknowledged that the proposed public interest defence would have to be tested by a judge and almost every submission during parliament's public hearings on the bill called for a last-resort escape clause, but still the ANC has refused.

The bill was presented and withdrawn by Ronnie Kasrils, the minister of intelligence at the time, in 2008.

Then, last year, President Jacob Zuma's cabinet refocused the draft and sent it back to a more pliable parliament with instructions to ensure its adoption.

The ANC did accept more than 120 amendments which greatly improved the original draft. These included a narrowing of the justification for sealing state information and enhanced provisions for oversight and appeal.

But without a public interest clause, this framework for secrecy remains a massive brake on the free flow of information to the people in whose name a tightly protected elite purports to govern.

Opposition parties have declared their intention to oppose the Protection of State Information Bill today. ANC members will be required by the rules of party discipline to be present for the vote and to support it.

We, the editors of the aforementioned South African newspapers, appeal to ANC MPs who will vote today to put the future of your country ahead of your own future in the party and reject this appalling bill.

If not enough MPs have the courage to do the right thing, we urge the cabinet to use the bill's passage through the National Council of Provinces to redraft it with the inclusion of a public interest defence clause.

If it passes through the legislature in its current form, we appeal to President Zuma to exercise his right to submit the bill to the Constitutional Court for ratification before he signs it into law.

If none of these things happens, it will be up to civil society and the political opposition to ask that court to declare it the abomination it is.

Without a triumph of personal integrity over political expediency in the National Assembly this afternoon, this day will mark the beginning of the end of the freedom of information we cherish as a pillar of the constitution that guards our future.

SHARE YOUR OPINION

If you have an opinion you would like to share on this article, please send us an e-mail to the Times LIVE iLIVE team. In the mean time, click here to view the Times LIVE iLIVE section.

I984

Posted 544 days ago
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ANC vs Public Interest: Round 1
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Liberal-Soul

Posted 544 days ago
.....22 November 2011........This DAY will go down in history as a day that South Africans (black, indian, white and coloured) will learn and remember the dangers of electing an UNEDUCATED president..........

Daffy

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
IM WEARING BLACK TODAY BURYING MY RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND THE RIGHT TO INFORMATION. MAY THESE RIGHTS REST IN PEACE THIS MIGHT BE MY LAST COMMENT ON ILIVE AS A FREE SPEAKING READER. STEVE BIKO MUST BE SPINNING IN HIS GRAVE.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Daffy, have you exercised your right to information this morning by reading the Bill?
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Akihito

Posted 544 days ago
THIS MIGHT BE MY LAST COMMENT ON ILIVE AS A FREE SPEAKING READER.
==================================================================
Perish forbid! You and your revved-up hero, Biko, will always be there to annoy us. I shall be wearing WHITE. You voted for the corrupt comrades in parliament. Live with it.

Rightway

Posted 544 days ago
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ANC has the majority in parliamentary decisions. No brain er. ANC will win this round. They all vote like sheep and do not care about the public tax payers right to know who is stealing their money.

One step for the ANC on great step backward for all South Africans .
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pushy

Posted 544 days ago
Are the ANC MP"s not allowed to think independently and objectively? or they are scared of being fired?
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
Pushy, there is no free vote in Parliament. If you vote against what the Whip has ordered, you lose your job!
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
Rightway, voting in parliarment is not like voting in a national election 'you dont exercise your feelings' but you do what the party has ordered you to do. The Democratic Alliance memebers of parliarment does the same every day - they will never defy their Chief Whip who in turn will never defy Party Caucus orders or the DA leader Ms Zille. DA, COPE, IFP, UDM, ACDP all vote like sheep in Parliarment, perhaps you should ask them before writing a no brainer like this one.
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pushy

Posted 544 days ago
Dr i rather lose my job for standing up for what i believe in. Thats what leadership should be all about.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
Pushy, better still just dont go into politics or stand as a member of parliarment. Obeying orders is a good job for politicians, police, doctors, soldiers, teachers, public servants, children and people who like to complain a lot. Dont go there if you dnt belong to these groups.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
If a secret leaks then someone could go to jail? So sad. Why would any mature adult wanna leak a secret they've been told not to. In corporate SA one signs a confidentiality agreement and divulging of a trade secret could result to an arrest; why should a government employee or a consultant to the government be treated differently. Why would it be in the public interest to divulge our military strategies, our key military bases, sensitive information information relating to our allies, etc. The protection of information bill has nothing to do with democracy or hidding of corruption. That is not the intention and if later the Act is utilised to hide corruption then anyone can go to a court and lay a charge.
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I984

Posted 544 days ago
Funny why all those silly people are protesting so much and making so much noise, isn't it?

By the way - does the comment below belong to you?

"As I said earlier on, it would be nice to meet you in person. ... You can sh4it on anything, we accept it, just like all those who came before us. But someday it will be more than enough to motivate someone to round you guys up in some event and open fire."
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Akihito

Posted 544 days ago
Military strategies, key military bases? When last have you entered a military base? These places look like hell! Shows the lack of discipline and incompetence. Please get your facts straight.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
1984, I own the comment. My hands wrote it. Saying, if the pale skinned people persist in disrespecting others at the rate they do, someday a crazy man, not me, will go on a rampage. We have seen it happen all around the world. I am just exercising my freedom of speech; sue me if you can.
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I984

Posted 544 days ago
"I press green this afternoon. "

Ah, so those words came from an ANC MP? Thank you. Truth is always the best.
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carel.steenekamp

Posted 544 days ago
You are being disingenuous; nobody can be that stupid.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
"If a secret leaks then someone could go to jail? So sad. Why would any mature adult wanna leak a secret they've been told not to."

Which country do you live in?
In SA, if your MEC is stealing millions and you try to stop it, you are either murdered or some 'crime' is manufactured against you. Not to mention the fact that you lose your job and can't get another one.

Besides, a confidentiality agreement cannot be more powerful than the law or human conscience, Even a doctor may break patient confidentiality if they believe that a person is committing a crime
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pushy

Posted 544 days ago
So Mnbvcxzo what u are saying is that, if someone has a told u a secret that could put someone's life at risk, u would keep it bcoz u are a matured adult? We are the taxpayers and we deserve to know how our money is spent by gvt.
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Manduvah

Posted 544 days ago
Clearly you either ignorant or delusional. As a matter of fact,if it wasn't for whistle blowers there would not have been a probe on the arms deal,if such a right had been effective and took precedent to access to information and freedom of speech, such information could've of been classified as state confidential information and divulging such information in contravention of the proposed state of information bill. For your ill conceived ignorant mind, if such a bill is passed as legislation the arms deal elements of fraud and corruption will be termed classified information of which the public will never know the perpetrators of such crimes. A secret is only best kept if it is to serve for the greater good and in the interest of the majority,which is the public not to protect statesmen from being exposed of their corrupt ways. What good even will the court do to protect the public if the very public is not permitted any public interest incentive by the Bill in question,what defense can be best utilized then?

Akihito

Posted 544 days ago
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I shall be wearing WHITE. Following the sheeple, the rent-a-crowd idiots, who will always perform when given a T-shirt and a food parcel, is NOT my tradition. I VOTED against the corrupt, communist ANC. That is democracy.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
I am sure there must be some logic behind you wearing white, but it escapes me.
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Tell-It

Posted 543 days ago
What a plonker!!! do u even know what constitutes an communist organisation?? Maybe u r the sheeple incapable of forming your own views and quoting things u heard from 'Oupa' and 'Oom frik' during ur weekly braaivleis..research and from ur own opinions the SACP is communist the ANC is their democratic Ally!!

Anikilapo

Posted 544 days ago
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power to the people, the leadership should always be well in heed of this fact...

UDFSupporter

Posted 544 days ago
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Once again ANC Apologist-in-Chief Mnbvcxz displays his naivete and ignorance of what is truly happening in this country. Do you really believe that the thousands of corrupt ANC leaders who have been exposed with their hands in the till and who still remain in the party, want to protect the constitutional rights of the citizens of South Africa? Continue lying to yourself and collect your pieces of silver at Luthuli House. Just as your evil predecessors in the old Nationalist Party, you are one of the foot soldiers of an evil regime.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
I wonder if naive is a new word you just learn but it is not describing me. Yes I am a foot soldier of this democracy and I know a threat to a democracy when I see it and this Bill aint it. I got my facts right, I read the Bill and I know it should pass. I press green this afternoon.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0
How can you be so wrong? How can you look yourself in the mirror and say that you uphold the values of the ANC, whilst you are in reality upholding corruption. Your ancestors will judge you by what you do today.

Daffy

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
Perish forbid! You and your revved-up hero, Biko, will always be there to annoy us. I shall be wearing WHITE. You voted for the corrupt comrades in parliament. Live with it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOL!! akihito ? where does this come from iyo!! seems you are not relevant to the topic here, be a sport buddy lets talk news censorship! and for your information not all balcks (as your comment infers) wvoted for the ANC, check the number of votes DA got in black areas. pleae lets keep race ot of the topic.
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Akihito

Posted 544 days ago
Where do you see RACE in my comment? Typical! Only whites can be racist, blacks are too noble. Now that is a racist remark. Stone me if you like.

nkosipeter

Posted 544 days ago
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Next year the ANC is to celebrate its 100 year anniversary.

Today it will signal its moral and idealogical death.

The old ANC we knew it, is no more.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
It did not die gloriously, it was betrayed , then murdered.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
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<PREAMBLE to the Bill>

RECOGNISING the importance of information to the national security, territorial
integrity and well-being of the Republic;
ACKNOWLEDGING the harm of excessive secrecy;
AFFIRMING the constitutional framework for the protection and regulation of access
to information;
DESIRING to put the protection of information within a transparent and sustainable
legislative framework;
AIMING to promote the free flow of information within an open and democratic society
without compromising the security of the Republic,
Avatar

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Please note the AIM; there is an existing Protection of Information Act,of 1982 which will be repealed by this Bill. This 1982 Act does not promote the free flow of information ------without comrpmising the security of the Republic. The 1982 Act coud've been left to run its course, but to achieve better democracy, the government seeks to replace it with a better law. We should in fact be celebrating today instead of wearing black gowns.
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piexie

Posted 544 days ago
Your profile pic seems to be the wrong way around!
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
I'll change it just for you pixie, if backwardness seem like going forward to you.
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Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
Lets not kid ourselves... The only reason this bill has been brought back from the grave, is because of the last arms deal, where we caught so many ANC comrades with their hands in the cookie jar... The fallout of which is still lingering, with Mac Maharaj's name "allegedly" being added to the list of culprits a few days ago.

Its a shame that the poor, uneducated, jobless masses who vote for these corrupt, greedy, soulless politicians in the ANC dont even have an idea what's going on... They just keep on getting poorer and dying younger, after dreadfully harsh lives. Their filthy rich ANC "representatives" on the gravy train dont think twice about the bribes they take, the power they abuse, and the public funds they mismanage.

This bill serves only the Master, instead of the Servants... As always.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0

I will not insult you by suggesting that this bill can be used to hide corruption, you know that already. Neither will I insult you by explaining that corruption is the deathknell for a nation.

What I will say to you is that when you look back and see the damage , poverty , misery and hunger it caused , that you acknowledge that you are to blame for it.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
WHERE IS THE PUBLIC INTEREST CLAUSE?

Daffy

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
You and your revved-up hero, Biko
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
what did you mean by this then? why not say Nadin Gordimer is a revved up herione?
i dont stone people and i will not allow you to lead me to your den. comment closed! im no racist we all are racist, only if we want to act in that manner!!
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Daffy, I feel you my man. Your hero is stoned like this! This is the kind of disrespect I have a problem with. Some people just have never learnt from home how to respect.
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LooseCanon

Posted 543 days ago
Daffy, my brother, I agree with you fully. However, you shouldnt have entertained this from the onset. I personally dont live to respond to such nonsense which shows some intellectual bankruptcy. This kind of disrespect of our heroes (Steve Bantu Biko) by some malcontents/ignoramus in our midst is nauseating. Some of us come from families and societies who know something about common decency and those who were not taught respect in their homes, shouldnt make it our problem!

SuiGeneris

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
14 years ago on November 19, 1997, Nelson Mandela told journalists that press freedom would never be under threat in South Africa for as "long as the ANC is the majority party''.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
He and the whole country were betrayed.
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Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
Madiba's legacy has long been forgotten by Zuma's ANC... Madiba's ANC was about freedom, equality, and a better future for all... Zuma's ANC is about self-enrichment, self-glorification, and a better future for the selected few.

I feel ashamed every day by the stories that surface about what ANC members keep themselves busy with, instead of working towards a better future for their poor, impoverished supporters... This secrecy bill only serves to aid Zuma's ANC in covering up their shameful activities.
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@BobbyBob

Mandela betrays the country with his continued silence.
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Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
@Danny: Madiba is 93 years old and obviously frail after a lifetime of fighting for the country and its people... As much as I wish Madiba could follow South Africa's Political Zoo for just one week and release a statement with his thoughts on the dire state of the country, it's a completely unrealistic expectation. Its up to all of us to stand up against Zuma's ANC and take accountability for the state of our country.
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PSG

Posted 544 days ago
@Somnambulist, mhhh recently a statement was issued on his behalf and Chief Mandla Mandela delivered it in England about 2 weeks ago during the Miss World pageant.

If they can do that or his office can do that on his behalf what's stopping them from issuing a statement about corruption in the country knowing what he stood for just like the same was done about two weeks ago?
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@Somnabulist

He's frail not dead. He still has time to release memoirs and paint pictures. It would take 5 minutes of his time to release a statement. My gran is 89 and is learning to use an e-reader tablet. Age is not an excuse. His silence is damning.
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@PSG Thank you skhokho. A voice of reason.
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PSG

Posted 544 days ago
@Danny, sure mfethu.

Kunjani kodwa mfana :-)?

89 is a very good innings :-)..
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@PSG Heita. I'm good baba, and you?

Yes, she has had a good innings. I don't think she will score a century though.
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PSG

Posted 544 days ago
@Danny, I can't complain mfethu.

89 is a very very good inning, have faith mfana she might just pull it off.
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Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
@Danny, @PSG: My grandma is 93 as well, bed ridden, and cannot distinguish me from my father ... She had a much more sheltered life than Madiba, who spent 27 years of his life in prison, doing manual labour for many of those years. Madiba has done more than enough for this country, we cannot play him like a Get Out of Jail Free card every time things aren't going so well. He gave his whole life to this country, we should allow him to retire in peace and fight our own battles... They fought their generation's battles, we must fight our generation's battles.

@PSG: A speech concocted by some glorified secretary in Madiba's name for a BEAUTY PAGEANT? You REALLY want to bring that in? Hahahahaha!
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@Somnambulist - I disagree with you. Mandela is the one voice that holds the weight required in the international community to alert the world as to what is going on. He is protecting himself with his silence.
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PSG

Posted 544 days ago
@Somnambulist: Your gran has also had a great innings big ups to her mate :-).

Why would you say Zelda is a glorified secretary?

My man, if Chief Mandla Mandela comes out and says that I was given this message by my grandfather to read out to you why should we not believe it as such?

Yes I want to bring it in coz if a speech from him can be read out to the entire world in England about Miss World, if his wife Mrs Gracia Mandela can read out a message from him during his annual lecture what is stopping him or people that represent him from issuing a statement against corruption in SA?

Avatar

Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
@Danny: I am simply saying it's not possible for a 93 year old man to take on South Africa's entire corrupt government a second time... I WISH he could just as much as you do, but we have to be realistic and take action for ourselves, instead of blaming others (Madiba) for the sorry state of our country.

@PSG: Thanks my man... Appreciated! If Zuma's ANC showed such respect for their elders, Madiba's ANC, we wouldn't be here, fighting to maintain our freedom. I unfortunately don't think any relation to Madiba can have an impact delivering a message, unless it comes from the man himself... Just like you can't expect Ziggy Marley to pull off a show like his father Bob Marley could, or Sean Lennon trying to pull of a show like John Lennon could... They just dont have the "gravity" needed.

Anyway, we are all on the same side: concerned about the future of this great country. We just disagree on what can realistically be done to address our shared concerns. All the best for you guys.
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PSG

Posted 544 days ago
@Somnambulist: Pleasure my man.

My man I think you are missing mine and Danny’s point. We are not saying that he should fight or take on the current government. We are saying that in the same breath that he can issue statements about other issue he can also land us a helping hand by putting his voice behind the corruption fight.

Relations to Madiba have had huge impact ask the Nelson Mandela’s Children Fund how much it has received from corporates by mere fact that this children’s fund sent out letters asking for donations using Madiba’s name.

Ohhh before I forget even the arms dealers donated to the Nelson Mandela’s Children Fund :-).

MohammedAbdulRahman

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
Just when I thought hard on how to campaign for the DA and bring opposition parties in cognisense, the ANC does it for free of charge to me. I love the ANC with all that I have and will forever support its doff leaders forever and ever!
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MohammedAbdulRahman

Posted 544 days ago
And Oh, before I forget! (Singing) Dubula dubula, dubula nges'bamu!

Kambula

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
This whole issue has re-surfaced with a speed that makes me think it is very timely for those with something to hide prior to Our Glorious Leader's Commission on the arms deal. OGL himself and Mararaj come to mind. It would be interesting to know after today who if any of the ANC will vote against this travesty. I know there are some (a few) able ministers amongst the rabble but will they vote with conscience? If not, is it a case of party before principle or are they ALL simply crooks?

pushy

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
I cant believe there are people in this blog who are actually supporting this bill.
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Argus

Posted 544 days ago
Hi Sweetie, u're quite cute, send me u're numba

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar

Let's engage on something we all have read before:

The objects of this Act are to—

(a) regulate the manner in which State information may be protected;
(b) promote transparency and accountability in governance while recognising
that State information may be protected from disclosure in order to safeguard
the national interest of the Republic;
(c) establish general principles in terms of which State information may be
handled and protected in a constitutional democracy;
(d) provide for a thorough and methodical approach to the determination of which
State information may be protected;
(e) provide a regulatory framework in terms of which protected information is
safeguarded in terms of this Act;
(f) define the nature and categories of information that may be protected from
destruction, loss or unlawful disclosure;
(g) provide for the classification and declassification of classified information;
(h) create a system for the review of the status of classified information by way of
regular reviews and requests for review;
(i) regulate the accessibility of declassified information to the public;
(j) harmonise the implementation of this Act with the Promotion of Access to
Information Act and the National Archives and Records Service of South
Africa Act, 1996 (Act No. 43 of 1996);
(k) establish a National Declassification Database of declassified information that
will be made accessible to members of the public;
(l) criminalise espionage and activities hostile to the Republic and provide for
certain other offences and penalties; and
(m) repeal the Protection of Information Act, 1982 (Act No. 84 of 1982).
Avatar

RogueTrooper

Posted 544 days ago
It doesn't matter how you spin it...or how many times you spin it...the mere fact that Cwele REFUSED to even consider let alone include the requested 'public interest' clause that ALL oppsition parties AND the ANC ally COSATU wanted included already indicates the real purpose for which this bill will be applied. It will be used as an intsrument to punish dissent and criticism of the ANC. The ANC have time and time again PROMISED to act on corruption...where and when has this happened? It NEVER does...they nail a select few (Selebi is actually the only one that comes to mind) that face criminal charges and or action...the rest?...lateral deployment or golden handshake. Some of the electorate out here are not idiots...we CAN see the wood for the trees. We CAN see through the lies of what was once a moral party based on ethics and equality...the ANC is morally bankrupt and it's leaders are thieves and charlotans of the highest order and are now bandying together to find ways of hiding their nefarious activities.
Today marks the 1st step in the devolution of RSA...and you are party to that...nay you are an agent of the destruction of this wonderful country. I hope you can live with that in the years to come when the true nature of this bill becomes evident!!!
Avatar

Kambula

Posted 544 days ago
Entirely agree with Rogue Trooper, you must be smoking something if you don't see through the true purpose of this bill. Spin all you want, the truth is that there is just so much to hide! And it won't be long at all before the gagging starts. Let's see what Constitutional Court has to say even with Zuma's lapdog "in charge."

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
‘‘public interest’’ means all those matters that constitute the common good,
well-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;

‘‘State information’’ means information generated, acquired or received by
organs of state or in the possession or control of organs of state;

‘‘State operations’’ means any function, activity or process conducted by an organ
of state which is authorised by law and is in accordance with the Constitution;

‘‘State security matter’’ includes any matter which is dealt with by the Agency or

‘‘classified information’’ means the State information that has been determined
under this Act or the former Minimum Information Security Standards guidelines
to be information that may be afforded heightened protection against unlawful
disclosure;
‘‘commercial information’’ means commercial, business, financial or industrial
information held by or in the possession of an organ of state;
which relates to the functions of the Agency or to the relationship existing between
any person and the Agency;

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
‘‘classification authority’’ means the entity or person authorised to classify State
information, and includes—
(a) a head of an organ of state; or
(b) any official to whom the authority to classify State information has been
delegated in writing by a head of an organ of state;
‘‘classification of information’’ means a process used to determine—
(a) the level of protection assigned to certain information; and
(b) the manner in which such information may be accessed and classified in terms
of section 15;
‘‘classified information’’ means the State information that has been determined
under this Act or the former Minimum Information Security Standards guidelines
to be information that may be afforded heightened protection against unlawful
disclosure;
Avatar

BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0

I will not insult you by suggesting that this bill can be used to hide corruption, you know that already. Neither will I insult you by explaining that corruption is the deathknell for a nation.

What I will say to you is that when you look back and see the damage , poverty , misery and hunger it caused , that you acknowledge that you are to blame for it.
Avatar

Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
WHERE IS THE PUBLIC INTEREST CLAUSE AND WHY WAS IT OMITTED?

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Avatar
Thus, this Bill has nothing to do with Press Freedom, it applies to me and everybody else as much as it applies to the press.
Avatar

Jonos

Posted 544 days ago
Your first comment says it all: "If a secret leaks then someone could go to jail? So sad. Why would any mature adult wanna leak a secret they've been told not to." Right, whatever you say, my ANC boss.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
WHERE IS THE PUBLIC INTEREST CLAUSE? HAVEN'T YOU LOT IN PARLIAMENT STOLEN ENOUGH FROM US, THE PEOPLE?

BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES

Posted 544 days ago
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Change is Pain: This Bill is being misinterpreted by those who want to undermine government in the name of MEDIA FREEDOM. This is not something new in the civilized world, such statutes do exist in civilized countries e.g. USA, Great Britain, Canada etc.
The problem in our country is that most media houses are used to oppose the government as they were used by the National Security Management Services, Civil Cooperation Beraue and Joint Management Committees to undermine the liberation struggle which was lead by the very ANC that is in question today. If you have read what was Mr. Don Matera’s respond regarding the use of the "BLACK TUESDAY" concept, you will understand that we are still a really divided society which is still possessed by the passed and pretending as if the ANC is the problem.
What is the real problem in this country is the fact reconciliation was one sided and those who did not truly embrace that processes held back to their old ways of doing things in the name of the rule of law.
Mark my words in this country we still live under the threat of fear of the unknown and all other negative attitudes towards each other, no matter what. Please anyone who responds must not throw insults at me so that we can engage to demonstrate to the people of this world that we are real matured CITIZENS who can share ideas without fear of being harassed as we are all saying we want free flow of information?
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Why are you attempting to racialise this?

You are trying to make this into a 'black' vs 'white' scenario and it isn't. This has absolutely nothing to do with colour coding. There are more black journalists than white journalists and they ALL disagree with being muzzled. The vast majority of the editors are decidedly 'non-white' and they are all standing together against this.

You are trying to split people when, in fact, this issue has unified people in a way that I have not seen since the SWC,
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Thanks Sir or Madam.
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
You are being disengenious. All countrys must protect national security, yes, but not all countries and certainly not those mentioned legislate to protect corruption.

This is what this bill does.
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BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES

Posted 544 days ago
To all those who reply to my comment: i am impressed that there are people who can differntiated between state information and public information. In terms os of the web language we say: Private Domains and Public Domains.

Readers are leaders. You can not claim a document from an authorised covert operation aimed at protectic the interests of the State, and want to have access to it without following the proper process and demand that by saying MEDIA FREEdom in under threat?
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I984

Posted 544 days ago
" the_original_MommaCyndi
Posted 1 hours ago
Why are you attempting to racialise this? "

Well, are there any other winning cards left to defend the indefensible?
If it is not along racial lines - it will be antagonising different social groups.

BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
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Trevor Manuel should resign on a point of principle. He once said that corruption, bad as it was , was being tackled. It only became a national threat if it became endemic.
Today sees that hapenning. Read together with the regulations permitting government employees to have business interests that can conduct business with the state, corruption clearly is endemic.

SuiGeneris

Posted 544 days ago
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@ mnbvcxz0

I can see from your comments that you are still very wet behind the ears, so think about this scenario....

You have two teenage daughters....the one is having a sexual relationship with a boy and her sister knows about it, but she doesn't tell you because she made a secrecy pact with her sister.
One day you realise that your daughter is 6 months pregnant, but it is much too late now to do anything about it.....

If her sister told you about this activity long ago, you would have been able to take action prevent this...
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
This is state security we are talking about here, National Security to be precise. It's got nothing to do with corruption, poverty alleviation, tax payers monies, Mac Maharaj, arms deal press freedom, Mandela, democracy etc. It is simple. You make the rules in your house concerning how your daughters open up to you. You set the tone. You can also make it a rule in your house that these girls don't divulge the pregnancy to a neighbour.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0,

I seem to remember that we have a 'rule' in the 'house' of SA that tender corruption is not acceptable. Hows that workin' ?
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BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
It has little to do with security, there were laws already in place to deal wity that, no this is only about corruption and leaders stealing the people's money. Its about nothing else.
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SuiGeneris

Posted 544 days ago
I tried.

Perhaps, only perhaps, you will wake up one day and then you will be a very disappointed man !
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BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES

Posted 544 days ago
I am impressed that there are people who can differntiated between state information and public information. In terms os of the web language we say: Private Domains and Public Domains.

Readers are leaders. You can not claim a document from an authorised covert operation aimed at protectic the interests of the State, and want to have access to it without following the proper process and demand that by saying MEDIA FREEdom in under threat?

BORNDURINGVINIGERTIMES

Posted 544 days ago
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Mr Editor do you accept stolen goods, items etc. if not why you want to accept stolen information without prior authorisation. Taking something that does not belong to you , without the permission of the owner is: STEALING. Some one who take something that does not belong to him/her withou the permission of the owner is a THIEF.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
ummm you seem to forget that we, the citizens of this country, pay for every piece of information that the government holds. That means that we, the citizens of this country, own the information, The government simply administers the state. They are a representation of us, of the state and for the state. That is the definition of democracy.

Now how, exactly, do you 'steal' something that you already own?
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MohammedAbdulRahman

Posted 544 days ago
Then elaborate for us; how did the SHOWERHEAD, BOXER SHORT president got hold of the information in the battle to send himself scot-free during his trial?
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
the_original_MommaCyndi , when the state has a case against you; lets say fraud. Do they say State v State. Clearly no citizen is the State. Whether you vote for them, or pay your taxes; the state is still distinct from its citizens. Now, lets read about state information: ‘‘State information’’ means information generated, acquired or received by
organs of state or in the possession or control of organs of state,
The citizens don't own state generated information. Information relating to corruption is not state information.
‘‘State operations’’ means any function, activity or process conducted by an organ
of state which is authorised by law and is in accordance with the Constitution;
Corruption is not State operation and is therefore not protected by the Bill. The press is still very much free to expose State Official corruption provided they get the information legally, or through a permission from Court.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0
Of course they don't say 'state vs state' because it is against an individual. This has nothing to do with individuals this has to do with the citizenry as a whole - the citizens being the employers of the government who are, therefore, our employees.

You are also being disingenuous as the bill does NOT make any provision for public interest - that being the crux of why everyone is against this. State information on how and why they spend our money is most definitely our business - especially if it is unwisely or corruptly spent. How much and where (for example) the police headquarters are could be, under the current wording of the bill, be deemed to be outside of the public interest and we wouldn't know about Roux making a killing at our expense

Its also laughable that they go to court to get permission to get a document as they will instantly be prosecuted for knowing about the contents of the document (you don't go to court to get a document on something that is not news worthy). That means that the media either has to go to court for EVERY piece of information coming out of the government or they face the likelihood of being jailed.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
the_original_MommaCyndi - lets read again from the Bill regarding public interest: ‘‘public interest’’ means all those matters that constitute the common good,
well-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;

Lets read concerning national interest: (1) The national interest of the Republic includes, but is not limited to—
(a) all matters relating to the advancement of the public good; and
(b) all matters relating to the protection and preservation of all things owned or
maintained for the public by the State.


Corruption is not public interest and its not an official policy of the state. Corruption is not an advancement of the public good. Corruption cannot be protected by this Bill (or soon to be Act).

The newspapers should get lawyer to help them read these things instead of speading misinformation.
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Scribbles

Posted 544 days ago
Mispending, or the like, doesn't automatically constitute "corruption" and it can be argued that it is within the "public's good" that the public do not know of any "mishaps". It doesn't matter how you spin it, this bill effectively muzzles our media. It allows the government the use of law to arrest or harass journalists, especially those who expose suspect acts, while allowing little to no avenues for mitigation. Government already harasses our journalists without the need for law so can you imagine what they might do should this bill pass?

Duzula

Posted 544 days ago
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Who said that you're Free to do anything, not in South Africa...

Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
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Has anybody heard of a place called Zimbabwe? What started happening when press freedom was taken away in that country by its oppressive leader and his corrupt regime?

Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
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█ ██ █ ████ everything ███ ███ is ███████ ████ fine ████ ███ love, ███████ ███ your █████ ████ government. - Black Tuesday
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I984

Posted 544 days ago

LOL! Man, I give it to you, how did you manage to do that?
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Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
Its all over Facebook... Copy and Paste it into your status to spread the message!

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
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That's it folks, its voting time.
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Argus

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxzo...or whatever, don't u have intelligence for a better name? on second thought... I can expect no better. Revel in this glory of yours, but be aware of the dire consequences... a new revoltion will start, againts you and your corrupt buddies.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
HOPE YOU CAN LIVE WITH YOUR CONSCIENCE. THANK YOU FOR SELLING OUT THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH AFRICA TO EVIL.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Look at your keyboard. The last row.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0, vote against this Bill or history will judge you in the same court as others that abused the rights of South African citizens - you will be in the dock with Verwoerd, Malan, Botha, Strijdom et al.

Nice company.

Just remember, the Nats also thought that they were chosen by God to rule for a 1,000 years...
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Argus

Posted 544 days ago
LOL....No wonder you're typing backwards....

Rightway

Posted 544 days ago
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"Covering up corruption is not the primary intention of the so-called secrecy bill - it includes clauses that criminalise its misuse just to avoid embarrassment - but without the means to demonstrate that abuse, the Protection of State Information Bill will be the wall behind which much evil is hidden."

....


@Mnbvcxz0

You are a betrayer and traitor of the people of South Africa if you support this draconian Bill.
If your hero Zuma 783 commits adultery (not if but when) and cheats on his many wife,s it will cause him embarrassment. This knowledge will also be censored from the media.

No one has the right to take our enjoyment away of seeing and reading how a, should be respected leader, acts like a total tribal buffoon. Laughter is medicine and the Doctor has ordered that we take it. The ANC are the source of jokes. Maybe because they are all clowns.

RogueTrooper

Posted 544 days ago
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It doesn't matter how you spin it...or how many times you spin it...the mere fact that Cwele REFUSED to even consider let alone include the requested 'public interest' clause that ALL oppsition parties AND the ANC ally COSATU wanted included already indicates the real purpose for which this bill will be applied. It will be used as an intsrument to punish dissent and criticism of the ANC. The ANC have time and time again PROMISED to act on corruption...where and when has this happened? It NEVER does...they nail a select few (Selebi is actually the only one that comes to mind) that face criminal charges and or action...the rest?...lateral deployment or golden handshake. Some of the electorate out here are not idiots...we CAN see the wood for the trees. We CAN see through the lies of what was once a moral party based on ethics and equality...the ANC is morally bankrupt and it's leaders are thieves and charlotans of the highest order and are now bandying together to find ways of hiding their nefarious activities.
Today marks the 1st step in the devolution of RSA...and you (supporters of this bill) are party to that...nay you are an agent of the destruction of this wonderful country. I hope you can live with that in the years to come when the true nature of this bill becomes evident!!!
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Your culculations are perfectly good; it's just that the inputs into the calculations are a bit uninformed. You say " It will be used as an intsrument to punish dissent and criticism of the ANC".
Please read the preamble to the Bill and the purpose of the Bill in Section 1. We are inherently genius but misinformation (I don't know the source) means that our God given intelligence is abused by those who seek to benefit from our confusion. In information Systems they have: input>processing>output. Input is what you get from the media, processing is your God given thinking talents, output is the media hopes for.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
READ THE CONTENT OF THE BILL, NOT THE PREAMBLE. JEEZ BUT YOU LOT IN PARLIAMENTR ARE SHEEP.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 544 days ago
@ Mnbvcxzo...I don't care what the preamble SAYS because it ain't worth the paper it's written on is my point. The ANC are, to use a term they like to describe 'agents', snakes in the grass...they talk the talk but NEVER walk the walk. Just because the content of the bill appears on the surface to be altruistic and for the people doesn't mean that it is...the ministerial hand book is proof of that because the snakes in the ANC now what is written there but do not follow it ergo Shiceka and countless others. I have lost faith in the ANC and no longer trust ANY of their motives, they are corrupt spineless snakes with no regard for wrong or right and that by definition makes them Sociapaths but that is to nice a name for their ilk...they are worse than that. They are only in it for themselves...and every case of corruption, maladministration, poor service delivery, AIDS denialism, tenderpreneurs etc.
The ANC will be the ruin of this country...the rot has begun and this bill is the 1st step towards ruin....MARK MY WORDS...we will rue this bill in years to come!!!
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Tell-It

Posted 543 days ago
@ Roguetrooper.. I love it I hear these statements all the time.. 'This country is going do the dogs!', 'We are the next Zimbabwe, MARK MY WORDS', This is the 1st step towards ruin, MARK MY WORDS'.' We Will not be able to host the WC coz they keep stealing and the stadiums are behind, MARK MY WORDS''..lol.. I love it why are the whitemen in this country always negative doomsayers, prophesying the South African apocalypse.lol. Even your women are more positive its a shame you hold them back in truly integrating becuase some of them really try. When ANC produced the freedom charter ppl had to MARK THEIR WORDS because it was the start of apocalyptic 'COMMUNISM' in this country, when Mandela was freed again doomsday, when ANC won in 94 many of them ran away because again Jesus was coming, when Mandela stepped down and Mbeki took over now 'the Real sh**' was supposed to hit the fan, Mark their words!! they said the same thing when Zuma took over and even when SA won the right to host the WC, now the secrecy bill is the new catalyst for doomsday and we must once again MARK THEIR WORDS!! HAHAHA..these ppl never cease to amuse me bcoz they are incapable of amazing anyone. Lighten up get with it you dinosaurs time is passing you by while you fret, frown and sweat over cataclysmic disasters that will never happen. I bet you also beleive in the Mayan prophecy and doomsday 2012..lol what a plonker!!

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
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Mnbvcxz0
‘‘public interest’’ means all those matters that constitute the common good,
well-being or general welfare and protection of the people of South Africa, the
promotion of which, are required by, or are in accordance with the Constitution;"

....... and there is no provision in the bill to protect this.



"Lets read concerning national interest: (1) The national interest of the Republic includes, but is not limited to—
(a) all matters relating to the advancement of the public good; and
(b) all matters relating to the protection and preservation of all things owned or
maintained for the public by the State.

..... and ho determines if the shady deal is for the 'advancement of public good' or should be kept secret?

"Corruption is not public interest and its not an official policy of the state. Corruption is not an advancement of the public good. Corruption cannot be protected by this Bill (or soon to be Act)."

..... and if we can't have access to the information then how do we know if it constitutes corruption or not?


"The newspapers should get lawyer to help them read these things instead of speading misinformation".

---- how is it 'misinformation'? The fact of the matter is that they can easily bury corruption within the acres of documents they deem to be secret and the media would never find them. Even stuff like the President's travels is now considered 'secret' because someone in a time machine might go back a year and assassinate the silly bugger. The fact that his office actually tells journalists where he will be going before hand is neither here nor there to our Minister of Defence, That seriously implies that there is a cover up in the costing. Should (for example) the media find out that there has been a huge invoice that is suspect, then that suspicious payment cannot be reported on as reporting on the President's travel is now a criminal offence,

There is zero control of what may or may not be classified and, as such, things like minister's staying in 5 star hotels or travelling to meet up with the jailed girlfriend overseas can be classified at the minister's discretion. Now how exactly does that benefit the country?
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Scribbles

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0 ,

Mispending, or the like, doesn't automatically constitute "corruption" and it can be argued that it is within the "public's good" that the public do not know of any "mishaps". It doesn't matter how you spin it, this bill effectively muzzles our media. It allows the government the use of law to arrest or harass journalists, especially those who expose suspect acts, while allowing little to no avenues for mitigation. Government already harasses our journalists without the need for law so can you imagine what they might do should this bill pass?
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SuiGeneris

Posted 544 days ago
@ MommaCyndi

You are wasting your time with this mnbvcxz0

He is either completely delusional or he is getting paid by the anc to post drivel here in the comment section !
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
SuiGeneris,

Of course he is being paid.
We all know that Loot Freely has a full staff on here.
Problem is that if we don't disprove his propaganda then we are in danger of being mistaken as giving it tacit approval
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
This Bill's purpose is to protect the ANC from the glare of media and public scrutiny. Like rats that scurry when the light is switched on, they wish to hide from public exposes of their greed, thieving, corruptoin, misappropriation, tenderpreneuring, uselessness, cronyism, poor performance and general screwing of the SA public.

Rightway

Posted 544 days ago
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One small step for the ANC one great leap backwards for all South Africans . The ANC are traitors and betrayers of the people of South Africa. No wonder Noble laureates and ex ANC say that this draconian Bill will take us beyond Apartheid.

22 November 2011 will be known as a day of infamy when we lost our right to a free media all because of corruption that needs to be hidden.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
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Zuma's infidelities are not state information, and the state would not have an interest protecting what he does with his private life. The Bill will step in only if it's a case of “personal information’’ means any information concerning an identifiable natural
person which, if disclosed, could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or
physical safety or general welfare of an individual. It’s amazing how a media hype can so paralyse, and make people feel vulnerable and so naked. The truth is that you have nothing to fear but fear itself. Do a bit of reading tonight, switch off the TV, that’s empowering.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Again.
Zuma's infidelities are not state information AT THE MOMENT.
Should the Ministry of the Presidency decide that it would reflect SA and the President in an unflattering light then the Minister can MAKE IT a state secret.

The state had no logical interest in protecting Zuma from the law but it did that anyhow. You cannot possibly believe that they wouldn't stoop to using this bill as a political tool as well.

May I strongly suggest that, tonight when your TV is off, you read 'Total Onslaught'.

NeoBlack

Posted 544 days ago
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"We, the editors of the aforementioned South African newspapers, appeal to ANC MPs who will vote today to put the future of your country ahead of your own future in the party and reject this appalling bill."


You called this upon yourselves. So expect no sympathy from some of us.

The problem with the SA media is that it behaves as if it is the only legitimate voice of the people. It has for years pushed an arrogant, anti-ANC agenda, and yet it decries foul when the government respond in a similar manner.

The editors of newspapers are there to advance their own careers and opolitical motives, and this has little to do with the so-called public interest. Which public are talking about here? Politics of 'victimhood have no place in our society.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
To a large degree I do agree that they did bring this on themselves.
I can't, however, agree that a muzzle is the solution. The granting of more powers of censure to the Ombudsman would have been a far better way to go.

We got a President who's only qualification was 'victimhood' so it obviously has a HUGE place in our society.

A newspaper's job is to inform and in order to do that, they need advertising revenue. In order to get advertising revenue, they need to have a readership. In order to get a readership, they need to produce news that the readers wish to purchase. In other words, don't shoot the messenger
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
THese are YOUR rights that are being trampled on, not some white editors'... Do you want to return to the bad old days of the State of Emergency when we weren't allowed to know ANYTHING that wasn't pre-approved by the Nats?

Do you even understand that a free press is a fundamental cornerstone of a democracy?

THis Bill undermines some of the most important rights in our Constitution...yet, you choose to make it an "anti-anc" argument. WAKE UP!
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I984

Posted 544 days ago

The Empire Strikes Back, huh?
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NeoBlack

Posted 544 days ago
i think as usual the media is being alarmist here. the passing of the bill does not mean that tomorrow we will wake up to it being law. the matter is still going to be engaged at the National Council of Provinces, and probably the Constitutional Court thereafter.
I personally do not see the bill seeing any light of day at the end. However, one is used to our reactionary media and its political cohorts behaving as if south africa is under siege.

Rightway

Posted 544 days ago
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Sapa reports that Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu lashed out at the bill, which he described as ''flawed''. "It is insulting to all South Africans to be asked to stomach legislation that could be used to outlaw whistle-blowing and investigative journalism ... and that makes the state answerable only to the state," he said in a statement.

...

Well put Desmond. If only you and Mandela were younger. You could have saved South Africa from the new ANC.

@Mnbvcxzo

Zuma and his cabal of moral decrepitants are public servants and figures. We have a right to know what the men and woman who are governing our country are getting up to. Where are you from? The moon? The past? Russia? Cuba? North Korea? Zimbabwe?
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Accountabulity is a key constitutional right. That is why we have the Access to Information Act, I wonder how many of us have used this priviledge before and filled out a form, payed the nominal fee required, usually 50c, and got the information you needed from anyone in S.A. You can also get information from your neighbour through this process. But I doubt that a JSE company would share information concerning its CEO's extramarital affairs and a trip to Switzerland with his family.
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
This Bill represents the crucifixion of SA's democracy on the altar of corruption, thieving and lying by JZ and his cabal.
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POST94

Posted 544 days ago
Tutu, like you, hasnt read the Bill. You rely on deliberately selective and misleading sound-bites by the media lackeys who unfortunately want ALL or nothing. Instead of crying the media should prepare itself for a constitutional fight.

POST94

Posted 544 days ago
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Media cry-babies!!!! This Bill is purely about the security of this country.

Having said that, the recent MG Report on Mac Maharaj probably added fuel to the already enraging fire of non-accountability of the media. How dare does one use evidence provided ON-CAMERA without due authority? What next? Statements made by minors on-camera, all in the name of Public Interest?
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Dr.Zeek

Posted 544 days ago
Poat94, you may have noticed that the M&G did NOT publish the story...? So, what are you referring to, except another witch hunt led by the ANC thieves?
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POST94

Posted 544 days ago
@Dr Zeek
Of course, they wouldnt dare but the intent to publish was there. The story was already put to bed.
But imagine if it wasnt Mac Maharaj, who knows his constitutional rights and has legal power and money to stop-dead such unlawful and shameful journalistic practises?
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
What exactly is Mac going to sue the M+G for?
Not printing anything?

There are already laws about reporting on minors and there are laws which allow a person to sue for a retraction as well as money should their individual rights be infringed.
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inkunzi

Posted 544 days ago
@the_original_MommaCyndi,
Post '94 is correct. If this wasn't Maharaj or anyone with power and money it would have been published. They already published blakcened parts of it, that's more than an intention. But he's suing them for ILLEGALLY OBTAINING classified information. Remember the Murdoch case? I don't believe that the media can abide by the law by itself. The M+G editors knew that they first had to request permission from the NDPP (Menzi Simelane) to publish the info but they didn't bother. Mac had to act to stop them from doing so. The M+G failed to follow the law and I say they must be sued.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
inkunzi,

I still don't see how Mac can sue them.
The information didn't belong to him, it belonged to the Prosecutor. By rights, it should be the state who does an enquiry to find out who leaked the information and to give a valid reason why the information is not in the public interest and, therefore, subject to censure from the Ombudsman.

I do feel that the media is its own worst enemy in this as they spend an awful lot of time shooting themselves in the foot. The problem is that a full on muzzle is not the way to go as history has taught us
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inkunzi

Posted 544 days ago
@the_original_MommaCyndi,

Finally something you and I agree on. They shoot themselves in the foot all the time as you put it, correctly so I must add. So what do you suggest be done? The media can't police themselves so what do we do? Murdoch is the prime example why we need law. Wikileaks is another example of a delinquent that publishes classified information about state diplomacy, that's wrong. Corruption yes, crime yes but not genuine state and personal secrets.

BobbyBob

Posted 544 days ago
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All countrys must protect national security, yes, but not all countries and certainly not those mentioned legislate to protect corruption.

This is what this bill does

inkunzi

Posted 544 days ago
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What's sad is not the bill itself but the lack of creativity by the media people and the freedom of speech champions. The fact is we need a new law to replace the 1982 apartheid one (which was bad). Now instead of contributing people are lamenting the whole bill. We need to protect state intelligence and military information. We shouldn't be seeing the faces of the President's pilots and his jet on papers and TV. That should be classified to protect our head of state as the US does. They don't leak Obama's travelling plans!
The bill states that no act of crime, maladministration, corruption etc can be classified under this bill. That's a fact and people pretend they don't know it's there or they haven't read the bill. The media needs to be policed, Murdoch is a glaring example why the media can't police itself. The next thing children's on camera testimonies can be published in the name of public interest? No! We need the law and the media and other organisation should be working with the law makers instead of throwing their toys out and not pointing out specific sections of the bill that are problematic. I'd support them if I knew exactly which sections must be amended and not this protest against the whole bill. We need a new one..
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
There is only one part of the bill that the editors are fighting.
Read the news papers and you will see which sections it is

(hint: Dr Zeek has mentioned it (in capitals) on a number of strings)
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inkunzi

Posted 544 days ago
@the_original_MommaCyndi,
Please, you should also read. I said, the bill states that crime, maladministration, corruption and any crime related activity cannot be classified under this bill. That then means they are fighting for nothing. They want the public information clause and they want to rid of the jail terms. Surely state security info is of public interest but it cannot be divulged. Corruption will still be exposed and if someone classifies it, they can be prosecuted using the very same bill! As they are not allowed to classify fraud and corruption using the proposed law. So I ask, what's the farce???
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
inkunzi

You forget that I lived through apartheid. I'm fully aware of how a seemingly innocent law can be used to strangle the media.

Who is going to prosecute the people who use the bill to hide corruption? The same people who are millionaires from the arms deal? Don't forget, politics is a nasty game in which getting leverage on your colleagues and opponents is the main game played.
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inkunzi

Posted 544 days ago
@the_original_MommaCyndi,

Here you disappoint me. Who prosecuted Cwele's wife? Who prosecuted Jackie Selebi? Who prosecuted Jacob Zuma, who will prosecute Malema? Those state organs will continue doing their job. Have faith in the NPA, the SIU, The Hawks, the Police (although I also have little faith in the men in blue myself), the public protector and importantly, our judiciary. The are doing their job. Don't be like the media and instil fear, doom and gloom in the citizens of this country. We shouldn't be an alarmist state, a swart gevaar state.
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Tell-It

Posted 543 days ago
Inkunzi i think you must be the only sensible person posting things on this comments section keep it coming my bra..I echo most not all of what you say 80%...Thumbs up my man!!

Mtho'engenanqondo

Posted 544 days ago
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White Liberals have created another black buggyman out of this Bill! and went on to rubbish struggle history! Never seen such pathetic little people since I was born!
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mzilikhazi Wa Africa is a white liberal ?

Good grief! What a brilliant disguise !
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bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 544 days ago
.....which probably is yesterday...........
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RedCoat

Posted 544 days ago
TW@

There should be a minimum IQ to post on these treads!
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
RedCoat I am sure you'd flunk it.
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Mtho'engenanqondo

Posted 544 days ago
You caucasians have never been satisfied with anything done by this democratically elected goverment, the less said about you lickey reasonable blacks the better! Such cheek and arrogance that you actually opinionate on a piece of legislation you have not read, worse still as demostrated by John Robbie this morning; CANT READ! In the mists of all this refusal or inability to read the said Bill, you declare without hesitation or embarrassment that there should be something wrong in this legislation! Why? Its authors are black, the goverment it seeks to protect is black and the Parliament which will vote on it is also black.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
??? please forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a 'lickey reasonable black" ???
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Mtho'engenanqondo

Posted 544 days ago
Typically MommaCindy....."if all fails, we will launch our attack from a spelling/gramma premise.Lets forget about the content".........

The new Capital City Mayor will make the name City of Tshwane official by end of next year......slowly but surely we will also make it illegal to register unAfrican names in our Home Affairs database.....rather than being arrogant about the use of your language, start looking for appropriate indeginous names, like; Gundwane, Mbiba, Mgodoyi etc!
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mtho'engenanqondo

It was a genuine question. I have no idea what you were trying to say.

The name given to me at my ukuthomba is uJikanelanga so I'm covered :)
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staren

Posted 544 days ago
No, pathetic is taking an issue that has the potential to affect every person in this country negatively, and dismissing it as white-liberal paranoia... especially considering that those who feel the effects of corruption and maladministration the most, are living in the townships and other impoverished communities.

Now truly, that is pathetic... or is it perhaps apathetic?
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RogueTrooper

Posted 544 days ago
Yet you aspire to adopt and behave just like these 'pathetic little people'...do us all a favour and get back to your herd you half-wit.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 544 days ago
@ Mtho...(blah blah) you said..."The new Capital City Mayor will make the name City of Tshwane official by end of next year......slowly but surely we will also make it illegal to register unAfrican names in our Home Affairs database.....rather than being arrogant about the use of your language, start looking for appropriate indeginous names, like; Gundwane, Mbiba, Mgodoyi etc!"...interesting, very interesting. So this is the new ANC's version of the New South Africa hey...uBuntu, tolerance and self-determination. Hmmm...very interesting indeed!!!
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Mtho'engenanqondo

Posted 544 days ago
@RogueTrooper

We've tried every option Rogue, but you guys just dont get it. We've protested peacefully, we used the bible, we established a guerilla army, we threw stones and bricks at you, we democratised the country, we reconciled, we robbed you, we reformed society...we tried everything! Whats left is to systemically assimilate you to our way of life, that way total transformation can be attained. I mean we already have control over the levers of power, we can drive an unpurturbed social engineering project. One of its aim being "unwhitening" you, stripping you off your identity! Piet Van Rensburg shall be Gundwane Mgodini, give him a goverment house that will make it very difficut to practise his whiteness.....goooi in some voddooo indocrination and an education that crafts what we desire out of him as a goverment. We can do it!
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RogueTrooper

Posted 543 days ago
@ Mtho...with your last comment I can only conclude that your are a troll and on a fishing expidition and I won't take the bait...and if you aren't I will not allow myself to be drawn into a base debate such as the one you are opening. Thinking like that is the reason we as a species finds ourselves on the precipice of self-destruction and extinction.
I sincerely hope that the former of the 2 notions is actually were your headspace is at...

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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Another gr8 way to get your corrupt buddies off the hook......

Let them confess under section28 in camera.

Releasing secret tapes when convenient has also helped in the past.

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 544 days ago
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......A dictatorship is a dictatorship is a dictatorship.....whether white or black. The Secrecy Bill only objective is to cover up the wrongdoings of the largest (dis)organized crime syndicate in power...Fraud and corruption become "secrets of state", "prevention of espionage" (ha ha ha ha ha ha).....and other horse-manure stories and explanations........Like Manto Tshabalala said HIV-AIDS can be cured with beetroot, garlic and other salad dressings....ad we must believe such fantasies, just because the paper says so.........
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
Bis - Manto never said Aids could be cured with garlic. She said it would help the immune system to fight opportunistic diseases from attacking the system. Mbeki never said HIV does not lead to AIDS, he said there is sufficient evidence globally that the HI Virus does not automatically become AIDS if proper nutrition and proper lifestyles are adminstered to the patient. I wonder what else is buzzing in your head.

OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
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I support the Bill and hope for stronger measures to curb theft of information. The enthusiasm of poor journalism in South Africa is incredualous. The media has survived on stolen information, cut and paste and poorly researched stories. We all know that we have a large media that steals and resell information, in addition agents like the CIA use the media to infiltrate our state seciruty just because our legal system has these many loopholes. Journalist and the media have no need to worry about this bill, it does not concern them. If you steal information then you have a lot to worry about and i guess that's why there is such a frenzy.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
I think that might be delusions of grandeur.

The northern hemisphere is going up in economic smoke, there is a 'war on terror' and the American puppets in the middle east are either ousted or under threat - I think the CIA has a few bigger fish than Zuma's latest infidelity to worry about.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
The bottom line is if you dont steal information you have nothing to worry about, really. You also can get a lot of information is you use the legal route of which there are many and have been available for many years. But no, no - the lazy journos prefer to steal information, cut and paste to earn their salaries and circulation.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
No Otto.
Bottom line is that this bill has nothing at all to do with the CIA or any other boogymen out there. It has to do with legislating the media into silence
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
the_original_MommaCyndi. I'd rather be safe knowing that state information is safe than hear about it on the Sunday newsapaper or in a bomb blast. Sorry, they should lock up every journalist, editor or anyone who steal state information just like they do someone selling stolen goods on the street.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Otto,
how on earth would the amount spent on a police head quarters building cause a bomb blast?

Okay, I'll admit that I was angry about it, as I had a lot of respect for Cele, but I never considered bombing anything.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
the_original_MommaCyndi. I have a copy of the police lease tender and its not a classified document. The agreement and annexures are classified - restricted because of the functional details, of what the various areas are going to be used for. Frankly if such details were on the Sunday newspaper or stolen by a journo or spy, anyone could easily drive by and point a weapon and fire at the facility. Not in my lifetime!

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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Robot Mugape never bothered with such convoluted methods to smother the press.

He would simply bomb the printing press.

RedCoat

Posted 544 days ago
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Who here would like to know the list of people who recieved bribes in the arms deal?

Or better still, who here feels it is in the publics interest to know who has been corrupted?

Well considering the deal was aimed at the defense of our country, you can be damn sure ALL information is going to be classifed a state secret.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
The day that happens is the day I wear a black suit. The day a list of corrupt officials is classified is the day I do a one man protest to the union buildings.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0,

And how would you know that the list has been classified? The media will not be allowed to tell you that the list has been classified or they will be jailed.

That is what we are trying to explain. Good intentions or not, this bill (in its current form) can be misused.
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
the Original - This is how you'd know. You have a piece of information you need clarification on. You submitt your Access to Information Form as prescibed by the Access to Information Act to the relevant state organ. The reply comes stating; YOUR REQUEST HAS BEEN DENIED, NATIONAL SECURITY. You go to your lawyer to see if this is legal, then if you feel that you have a case you go to court.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Mnbvcxz0

Okay, now how do you know you want clarification on that piece of information?
Did someone tell you that information was pertinent? If so, then you have been told about information that is classified and you can be arrested.

Catch 22

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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Are we at war with someone?

All these state secrets to protect.


CIA...FBI...CIO...KGB...

Jumping at shadows?

Bwahahaha
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
This is the information age. The biggest industry today for the last ten years is information. The world over trading on information has grown, that's why your 128Kb memory stick is now 4Gb and so forth. Information War! Those who cant protect their information definately loose it, for sure. Better be safe than sorry!

WelkomHorizon

Posted 544 days ago
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One of the first documents to be classified in terms of this law may well be the Ministerial Handbook, revised and updated to ensure that the old one with the data in it is nothing compared to what the new one will have in it.
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lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
Mac Maharaj will also be off the hook, just in time....phewww...

Then Zuma's son and Mandela's son will also be breathing sighs of relief, as their corrupt activities get masked under the veil of state security.

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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I guess they will also stop the Internet for fear of Wiki-leaks.

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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Reports of large scale corruption will soon be a distant memory.

However there will still be much reporting on how Mr Nhlope stole R50 from the home affairs cash till. The swine. And boy, will they throw the book at him.

Somnambulist

Posted 544 days ago
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Post94, what "security" do you speak of? Is it our external security, which allows thousands of refugees across our borders every day, leading to even greater poverty, pressure on state resources, and unemployment? Or are you refering to our internal security, with its crumbling police force (timeslive.co.za/local/2011/11/20/cops-in-state-of-collapse)?

Freedom of speech is no threat to the security of a government whose officials conduct themselves with the best interest of their country at heart... After the last arms deal debacle, please forgive us for not having any faith in any bill that could have even the slightest possibility of hiding corruption, mismanagement of public funds, or misappropriation.

Also, note how Presidential Spokesperson Mac Maharaj is not commenting on whether the allegations are true or false (news24.com/Multimedia/South-Africa/Mac-Maharaj-interviewed-on-eNews-20111121)... Merely that the information, from which the allegations were formed, was obtained unlawfully. Just because someone gets off on a technicality from being prosecuted, doesn't make them innocent.

Without freedom of speech, you and I cannot even voice these opinions of ours, so do not take it for granted.

BokFan

Posted 544 days ago
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Go for it Boss.

The rape of the nation will now happen under a blanket of secrecy.

What a shame on us all that we can be bullied by thugs and criminals into losing our self respect.

But it aint over

ALUTA CONTINUA

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
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I am getting into media, wow its so easy to fool people.
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BokFan

Posted 544 days ago
Not quite so easy as when you have habitual criminals in parliament
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staren

Posted 544 days ago
I have to say, based on your comments on this thread, I couldn't agree more!
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
Stick with politics Mnbvcxzo. Pay is far better and the perks are to die for.
..... the opportunities to lie like your feet stink ain't too few and far between either
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RedCoat

Posted 543 days ago
Great, its awesome that you know what you want to do when you leave school.

The best of luck..............Hope there is enough work for you in the 'media of the future'.

danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
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Let them go ahead with it. They will see their ARSES in 2014. They will lose the black middle-class vote to the DA. You read it here first.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
No amount of foul language can put reason to your argument. There is no such a thing as 'black middle class'. The media had this 'black middle class' as a swing vote for COPE and what happened? the popular 'black middle class' did not show up. Dont hold your breath you might asphyxiate yourself. The Bill will be passed and make it into law, the sun will still come out the next morning, birds will be flying, rain will fall but those who steal state secrets will never have peace or profits.
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@OTTOOTTO

Howzit moron. The difference back then, was that the black middle class had to choose between a supposedly white, racist party and poor service delivery and corruption. in 2014, they will be choosing between a supposedly white, racist party and poor service delivery, corruption and their very FREEDOM. The ANC will lose power in 2019 after dropping to the mid-50 percents in 2014.
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BokFan

Posted 544 days ago
OTTOOTTO

Hi there. I take it you dont mind how much money the likes of Cele, Shitsheka and so on steal. Or how much crarp arms deals and crooked tenders cost the nation. Or how many children die walking in search of food because their mom has no ID since the useless ones at home affairs have failed her. Or how many illegal immigrants and criminals are buying houses in Alex. Or whether schoodl books have arrived in the ECape on time. Or........

These things dont matter to you for some reason since you feel they should be hidden. I'd like to understand why.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
danny.archer1. Your original post said 2014 and your follow-up now says 2019. There is nothing called 'black middle class' voting. They did not turn up in that last election, they'e never turned up in any elections - sure they wont turn up in 2019. You want to move the goal post again?
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danny.archer1

Posted 544 days ago
@OTTO

Are you OBE educated or was "Liberation before Education" your alma mater? Methinks the latter. I shifted no goal posts. I said the ANC would see their arses in 2014. ie. They will lose a lot of votes, as elucidated in my follow up post.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
BokFan. Am glad that action has been taken on Cele and Shiceka but that should not end there - gross mismanagement has been found and due process and consequences should follow. I just dnt know how you link that with me. I have worked in the UN for eight years, your comments are below anything i have seen, read about or heard. It's the sort of lofty stuff that one reads about in the newspapers written by poorly trained journalists, unfortunate.
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
danny.archer1. So you are usually misunderstood. There is nothing called 'black middle class' vote, you must be the only one.
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danny.archer1

Posted 543 days ago
@OTTOOTTO

ht tp: //ww w .google.co.za/# hl=en&cp=25&gs_id=3o&xhr=t&q=%22black+middle+class+vote%22&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=%22black+middle+class+vote%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=1e94d75b13e749d8&biw=1285&bih=894

Once you've looked through the search results, go play outside with the rest of the children. The grownups are busy.
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BokFan

Posted 543 days ago
Hi Otto

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Working for the UN is nice. I am glad you have a job. Many in SA dont. Some government lackey could prevent critical analysis of the problem by withholding information because it may have negative economic or social consequences.

And you feel thats A OK.

'sfunny I thought the UN had higher standards than that. But I suppose driving a minibus taxi in a blue hat is the same as driving a minibus taxi without one.
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BobbyBob

Posted 543 days ago
Dont assume OTTO represents in any form or manner the views of the UN.

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 544 days ago
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the original. I love your thinking; clear and fair.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 544 days ago
I have greatly enjoyed our discussion today. Thank you
Got to go now so I can earn some tax rands.
Enjoy :)
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BobbyBob

Posted 543 days ago
Mnbvcxz0
You're hardly the one to judge clarity of thinking. Get that black suit so long.

SpellJammer

Posted 544 days ago
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If recent events in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt have proven anything to the world, it is that we are not accountable to leaders, they are accountable to US! The time for apathy is over! We need to start mobilising against these leaders and their blatant disregard for any rule of law. The time for negotiating is over. If its a revolution they want, a revolution they shall get. They are so out of touch with societies sentiments that its actually quite scary. They just need to see what is happening on social media sites and the level of discontent being vented out there. This is how the demise of some of these Arab nations started. WE WILL NOT GO SILENTLY INTO THAT DARK NIGHT WITHOUT A FIGHT!
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OTTOOTTO

Posted 544 days ago
What a pity, you should have joined Umkhonto weSizwe.
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SpellJammer

Posted 544 days ago
Daft comment!
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RogueTrooper

Posted 543 days ago
Hmmm...SpellJammer...could you be the one that I have encountered on another forum? A certain Mr.Spencer...if so. Nice to have you here I know your presence will make for interesting reading and robust debate.
Back to you comment...agreed 100% and that is why we are as vocal as what we are on this topic...we realise that we are now on the wrong side of the slippery slope with regards to the government policy on civil liberties. This, if not resisted with intent and purpose shall mark the beginning of a slow to start but rapidly increasing downward spiral and as you say ...we will not silently into that dark night without a fight!!!

EVIL HAPPENS WHEN GOOD MEN DO NOTHING!!!
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SpellJammer

Posted 543 days ago
Hi RT, you busted me :) Spot on with your analysis though! There is power in numbers. We have allowed apathy to get the best of us over the years, whether it be not bothering to vote or just tolerating the levels of social delinquency which exist in our country today. We need to reclaim our country from the hands of these thieving self serving moral degenerates. If the media is serious about this they need to start a groundswell out there and start mobilizing citizens to reclaim our country. There comes a point when enough is just enough and this most certainly has to be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back if we ever intend on progressing as a nation. We have simply been through too much to turn into another archetypal African statistic! We owe it to those who gave their lives for our liberation and freedoms.

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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I guess we need to keep the fact that we have unuseable submarines a secret from the CIA.

This is critical.

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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I wonder if Mnbvcxz0 could kindly list some things that need to be kept secret from our enemies, who have never attacked us, but may well do if we do not quickly have secrets?

TIA

bis_k'hallawaya

Posted 544 days ago
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........It is very amusing to read the moronic efforts of the minion cadres to disguise the real reason of the diktat the ANC wants to push for covering their wrongdoings and have free hand to ransacking the public coffers.........

The "to protect us" justification is so absurd and false tantamount to an insult to the intelligence.......The comparison with say, publishing details like the testimony of a child in camera related to common crime as as a reason for the "Lawghable Law"is such a c.rap......

Why must we be kept in darkness on the fabulous tender deals enriching known crooks from the ANC or any other party, or the excesses of major and minor officials in living in luxury at expenses of the tax payer???......the still paying convicted and suspended on investigation ex-Ministers.......the involvement of officials spouses in drug trafficking???.........the bribes paid by "oppressor" transnationals to corrupt officers that then launder that money in overseas accounts where the family pet is the holder????..........

......Do they think we are just as stupid???.........

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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I'm stupid, so it makes sense for someone else to decide what I should, or should not read.

lamelooser

Posted 544 days ago
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Our hero Nel son Mandela is very quiet regarding these matters.

I guess they keep him in the dark these days.

Nelsom, "Errr where is my daily news papers and my slippers?"

Secretary, "Sorry my dear, the delivery boy is sick again." "Oh look the grand children are playing ring-a-ring of rosies in the garden, let's join them."

Nelsom, "Ah!! Wonderful, I just wish I could rememper who I voted for."
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Rightway

Posted 543 days ago
The proposed secrecy bill, up for a parliamentary vote on Tuesday, does not meet the nation's goals for free speech, former president and rights icon Nelson Mandela's office said.

ThePurplePimp

Posted 543 days ago
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The ANC spits in the faces of the people they govern, they spit on the legacy of Mandela. A new South African swear word> ANC
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staren

Posted 543 days ago
At this rate, it may as well stand for Association of National Corruption...

skhokho21

Posted 543 days ago
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I hope all the MPs of the ANC are in the house today to pass this bill. ANC I voted for you to look after my interest, you are ruling this country democraticaly and use that democracy & majority to ensure this bill is passed today. When this bill is law, stop the arms deal enquiry if sensitive information or the country`s intelligency is gonna be compromised. Show me that we are the majority in this country of our mother land. Next lets sort out the judicial system of this country, its still in the manority`s rule. I am sick & tired of the cases my gov is losing in the constitutional court due to people that are protecting their own interest. Lets fill those benches with our own people to look at our own intersts. In 2014 lets do away with this provincial govs, the winner must take all and rule the country.

They can say what ever they want, gov don`t give tenders, its me & them who works in these depts and we will be sorted out by the police for corruption including those ministers, premiers that send their advisers to be part of panels on tender committees and force people to give tenders to their preferrd souls.

Mr President plz be a leader, our house need a leader, show yourself.
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staren

Posted 543 days ago
How on earth do you equate the passing of a bill that allows for the classification of virtually any government activity to be in YOUR (or the masses) best interest? Basically you're saying the Government can do as they please and you're more than happy to accept anything they say as the truth...

PSG

Posted 543 days ago
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If what News24 is currently reporting is true well the bill has been enacted, a total of 259 yes votes were received, with 41 no votes and 32 abstentions giving a total of 332 MPs in parly today.

What’s of interest is that we have 400 MPs in parly with the following breakdown:
African National Congress (ANC) 264
Democratic Alliance (DA) 67
Congress of the People (COPE) 30
Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) 18
Independent Democrats (ID) 4
United Democratic Movement (UDM) 4
Vryheidsfront Plus (VF Plus) 4
African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP) 3
United Christian Democratic Party (UCDP) 2
Pan Africanist Congress of Azania (PAC) 1
Minority Front (MF) 1
Azanian People's Organisation (AZAPO) 1
African People's Convention (APC) 1

People can draw their own conclusions based on the above.
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Tell-It

Posted 543 days ago
Great the Bill has passed we can all shut up now. As if we didnt know that this bill was gonna pass!?? the media and their hounds can put a lid on it. This Bill was passed to protect the interests of people far beyond the spectrum of the ANC, international groups and organisations who are too big and powerful to be exposed. It is not the end of the world but it is a step towards the eroding of human soveriegnty and individual freedoms. This bill wouldve been passed whether it was the DA, the ANC or even the Soccer Party(yes such a party existed in 1994) in power this bill wouldve been passed because the people in power in SA have no real power they are answerable to their masters behind the scenes, the DA will disappoint you just as much as the ANC or any other political party..Maybe even worse because they are craftier and far more cunning than the ANC ever will be which makes them even more dangerous and even more ruthless against the people.

skhokho21

Posted 543 days ago
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Democracy prevailed, majority rule.
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RogueTrooper

Posted 543 days ago
Hahahahahahaha....that's me laughing at your ridiculous statement. If you honestly believe that this vote represents true democracy at work and not some peverse deviation thereof, you are sadly mistaken.You cannot see that this is yet another layer stripped from the armour and power that is your civil liberty.
You will look back someday and think to yourself...how did we get here? While queuing for bread and water with your government food stamps as you gaze into the eyes of a person who was once a school friend who shared your lunch because he had none...only difference is that today he wears state issued body armour, wields a truncheon and has no compuncture to crack your skull open if so ordered should you show the slightest instance of dissent.
This is how the corruption of power begins...they slowly but surely strip all your liberties away, all the while telling you that it is for your own good...after all you gave them the mandate to do your thinking through your vote. They are the party, they know best!
Enjoy the freedom you have today for it will not last!
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Mnbvcxz0

Posted 543 days ago
Indeed democracy worked today. The people have spoken. Our leaders have made a choice guided by wisdom and love for the nation. Thank you for saving us from the Armegeddon. Now the air waves will be cleaner I hope. They would report on a raw uncooked story that destroys a family, a community and NEVER do a follow up story when the person is found innocent.

Tell-It

Posted 543 days ago
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I think we are all missing the bigger picture here.. The ANC have passed this bill not only to protect themselves but also and mainly to protect the Armsdealers who are some of the largest multi-national corporations in the world and have vast political influence and connections many of whom would be extremely embarassed and compromised if the SA media continues digging up the truth. However even these multi-billion dollar corporations are lackeys to far more sinister interests the scope of which u and I cannot even imagine if you dont believe me then read this quote and see how this man paid for his life by trying to speak out on the truth.

"The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings' (this relates to the bill itself as well as the ANC's secret links to arms dealers and other murky organisations and the secret organisations that fund and control those arms dealers).

"For we are opposed around the world by a MONOLITHIC and RUTHLESS conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence — on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

"Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match. - John Fitzgerarld Kennedy in his 1961 address to the ANPA(American Newspaper Publishers Association)

Just two years after that speech and many others the greatest leader of our time laid his life down on the altar of freedom and human sovereignty and was assassinated by the sniper bullet of a gunamn said to 'be working alone'. People wake up! This Bill is only a drop in the ocean and ANC corruption is only a minute part of this cover-up. Please broaden your worldview and learn to see the bigger picture or the wider spectrum. The media is being gagged in almost every country in the world at an alarming rate over the past 10 years this problem is not unique to SA and is not an 'ANC corruption problem'. WAKE UP!!

'

Mnbvcxz0

Posted 543 days ago
Avatar
Let's all go home, do the neccessary reading and then come back and talk to each at a higher understanding of what the issues are. This issue has exposed us to how far behind we are in terms of current affairs. We are really malnourished when it comes to current affairs, the news have all become a population mind control. There are no news anymore. Maybe this Bill will force the media houses to stop the laziness and start reporting as if the readers are clever enough to spot a shady work.
Avatar

Hi--Jack

Posted 543 days ago
Nice try.

Separation of powers. Party and State ?

Officals in Government are so corrupt there are not enough paper to print it on.

Malnourished you say. Uninformed I say. We have riots in the streets, politely so if you compare them to North Africa.

Why ?


Because at least the media tells us why.


Unending corruption, that's why.


You support the Bill.


Just pay your taxes, and de-register from this site.


Pay your taxes, pay, pay, pay........


Avatar

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 543 days ago
I am all for better journalistic input but do you think the rest of the people who buy papers are?

So far, you have accused almost everyone of being ignorant on the issue but have failed to 'educate' a single one of us
Avatar

Hi--Jack

Posted 543 days ago
And so, as democracy failed, the Dark Days of Parliamentery failure has been exposed to those that care, the Moderator Team has left - the sole reason of the failure of progessive thought, I hereby declare this forum Open and Free::::::

Please post Reply to the last post and you are free to Expre$$ you're vilest thoughts.

Courtesy of the Free Speech Movement of Free the Hi--Jacks--from the Moderators.


Please post:

The Apache Back Door has invited you back in.
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