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Sun May 19 04:23:49 SAST 2013

'Ban The Spear, stone its maker'

JACKIE MAY and ANDREA NAGEL | 22 May, 2012 00:59

As the ANC yesterday prepared to launch its court bid to have the controversial painting of President Jacob Zuma removed from the Goodman Gallery, in Johannesburg, one of South Africa's biggest churches called for artist Brett Murray to be stoned to death.

Enoch Mthembu, spokesman for the Nazareth Baptist Church, commonly known as the Shembe church, said: "This man has insulted the entire nation and he deserves to be stoned to death.

"What he did clearly shows his racist upbringing because art does not allow people to insult others.

"This is an attack on the culture of the majority, the black people of South Africa. With our culture we are allowed to marry many women. And white people must understand that and tolerate our culture as we do theirs. We are not like some of them who prefer prostitutes as they regard women as sex objects," said Mthembu.

The furore that started on Thursday afternoon - with ANC spokesman Jackson Mthembu issuing a statement criticising the gallery and Murray, and City Press newspaper for publishing the painting on its website - has shown no signs of abating.

Mthembu yesterday urged ANC supporters to gather in the Johannesburg city centre today "as an act of solidarity to the president and the ANC .

"We view this portrait and the depiction of the president by Brett Murray and the Goodman Gallery as distasteful, vulgar, indecent and disrespectful," he said.

Further condemnation came from ANC secretary-general Gwede Mantashe, who described the painting as disrespectful and "racist", and encouraged marches against the gallery.

"We have not outgrown racism in the 18 years of democracy. I can tell you, if you depict a white politician in that form the outcry will be . totally different," Mantashe said.

Five members of the Film and Publication Board visited the gallery yesterday to assess the artwork, The Spear, part of Murray's "Hail to the Thief II" exhibition.

Justice Minister Jeff Radebe said yesterday that the painting was an insult to most South Africans and, "If that is art, I don't know what an insult is".

Pamela Stein, of law firm Webber Wentzel, representing the Goodman Gallery, was yesterday unaware of the Justice Department's view that "the conduct under scrutiny amounts to no less than crimen injuria".

Department spokesman Tlali Tlali said: "We are giving it serious consideration and will probably approach the police to request them to conduct a criminal investigation into the matter. Should we pursue it, we will do so on behalf of the president ."

The Johannesburg High Court will hear an urgent application by the ANC and Zuma today.

The founding affidavit states that the portrait depicts Zuma "in a manner that suggests that I am a philanderer, a womaniser and one with no respect. It is an undignified depiction of my personality and seeks to create doubt about my personality in the eyes of my fellow citizens, family and children."

In responding papers, gallery owner Liza Essers said: "The Goodman Gallery must respect the decisions of the artists that have solo shows as to what work they wish to display. No member of the public should be able to tell these artists which art works they should exhibit and which they should not. In turn, the Goodman Gallery cannot be a gallery of integrity if I let any individual, even the most powerful, dictate as to its content."

Though officially closed to the public yesterday, there was much activity at the gallery even as a security guard turned away visitors.

Essers told local and international journalists - and the five members of the Film and Publication Board - that Murray has been recognised as a satirical artist for over 20 years and had criticised the apartheid regime in his works when the National Party government was in power.

"The exhibition is not about one piece of work. There are 60 works that make up the show and The Spear should be viewed in its full context.

"Brett has always taken well-known icons and trademarks and represented them in a different context - this is his chosen mode of artistic expression."

Raymond Louw, a member of the board of the Freedom of Expression Institute, said: "It's not what I regard as something I would enjoy looking at.

"But it makes a pointed, political message that needs to be put out in the public domain for people to think about."

But not everyone was offended by The Spear. Tselane Tambo, daughter of the late ANC struggle icon Oliver Tambo, said on a social networking site: "So the Pres JZ has had his portrait painted and he doesn't like it. Do the poor enjoy poverty? Do the unemployed enjoy hopelessness? Do those who can't get housing enjoy homelessness? He must get over it. No one is having a good time. He should inspire the reverence he craves. This portrait is what he inspired. Shame neh!"

Jonathan Shapiro, aka Zapiro, currently being sued by Zuma for his cartoon showing the president preparing to rape Lady Justice, said yesterday: "I support Brett Murray in so many ways.

"This is a powerful piece and depicts Jacob Zuma as he portrays himself to the public.

"The ANC is characterising Brett incorrectly as a racist. Brett has a long struggle history. He has done vicious pieces against apartheid since the 1980s. The entire exhibition is a very powerful critique of the ANC and how they have slipped away from the Freedom Charter's ideals and from their own moral high ground. The Spear shouldn't be seen in isolation.

"If the ANC succeeds with the interdict, it will be a very sad day for all of us doing similar work, and it will change things for all of us doing similar things. It would be unconstitutional."

The litigation between Zuma and Shapiro will begin in the Johannesburg High Court in October. - Additional reporting by Mhlaba Memela, Chandré Prince and Amukelani Chauke

SHARE YOUR OPINION

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BornintheRSA

Posted 361 days ago
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Notwithstanding any views about the painting, this is extreme intolerance from Enoch Mthembu. He does not deserve to be a church spokesperson. And he speaks like a racist himself with his references to race groups. He leaves no room for open discussion.
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Wort

Posted 361 days ago
It's clear incitement to murder and is -- as such -- blatant hatespeech. Press charges asap.
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 361 days ago
In the township any man who goes to church is regarded as a bit cranky. It is mostly women who attend churches. We knew a church as a place for womanising, where nose-running 'umfundisi' will 'tell' mostly women that they have 'demons', and need some healing. I leave you to guess what form of healing was that.

This Mthembu's stock of sheep must be dwindling severely.
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GregSmith

Posted 361 days ago
Good point BornintheRSA! What this painting has done is drawn out the real racists and barbarians such as Enoch Mthembu. To want a man to be killed because of a painting is not very Christ like and me thinks Enoch will have to one-day answer to God for this appalling hatred. Jacob Zuma being portrayed as a BIG PRICK is accurate albeit crass but does not deserve stoning to death. May I remind you Enoch Jesus said ""Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
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SindiM

Posted 361 days ago
I agree. It is people like him that make want to puke, promiscuos people hinding behind culture. Who created this culture? them, to justify their promiscuity. Now the whole nation must accept and respect this insults to woman kind. The message on the painting is clear, and they fail to read it. they are so small minded to think that the message is about race. The message is about how our president potray himself to the nation.
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GregSmith

Posted 361 days ago
Well done Tselane Tambo, daughter of the late ANC struggle icon Oliver Tambo. You have hit the nail on the head (excuse the pun). For JZ to have such a fragile ego is remarkable, yet that is the only remarkable thing this man can attribute to himself. He has done F@#K ALL for the poor, unemployed, homeless etc. Now aren't these the real issues that he should be focusing on? Perhaps then he would have a few artists portraying him in a better light.
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ProgressiveAfricanDemocrat

Posted 361 days ago
I have to make it clear that the likes of Jacob Zuma and Enoch Mthembu do not speak for some of us, and there is no point in them pretending that they do. If they want to pursue their "culture" they are free to do so but they cannot assume that it is the culture of the majority. It is definitely not. While polygamy was common in the past, and there are older people in polygamous relationships, there are hardly any young people I know in polygamous relationships. Many people in polygamous relationships advise young people against such, and for good reason. It is only people like Jacob Zuma, King Zweithini and King Mswati who are proud of being polygamists.Not even Jacob Zuma's sons and daughters are in polygamous relationships. Polygamy is a relic from old era and is dying a slow death. Jacob Zuma is trying to strengthen the things that are ready to die.

If anything, this Zuma painting has exposed the hypocrites among us. I often wonder how people like Jeff Radebe, Cyril Ramaphosa and many of these senior ANC leaders who have one wife explain this situation. What do they tell their wives and what do their wives say in return? "Sweetheart! you know I am not like that. I do not believe in that and I am not a Jacob Zuma and please do not look at me like I am one. But this is politics and we have to defend our own whether right or wrong!".
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newshound

Posted 361 days ago
This is SA: don't let hate speech from a man of the cloth surprise you.

Timbuck9

Posted 361 days ago
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I see the people that "BELIEVE IN IMAGINARY BEINGS" are also jumping on the Band Wagon... and throwing in their 22c worth of comment!

Sad comment to make.... when all they do is MILK THE MASSES/ CONGREGATIONS of their hard earned cash...

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mikesmith

Posted 361 days ago
Agreed, Sadly so.
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Afrikado

Posted 361 days ago
Therefore as such believers they are not entitled to throw in their 22c worth of comment? Because if you move from such premise, then indeed freedom of expression is in dire straits indeed!

As to the nature of the comment I have my views on that.
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Razzow

Posted 361 days ago
Where's the frededom of speech now.........bloody hypocrits. "If the cap fits, wear it".
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AlfredNeumann

Posted 361 days ago
And another bunch of "outraged" citizens who will completely and conveniently pretend that the work of Ayanda Mabulu doesn't exist.

Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
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I’ve always been a strong advocate of free expression, to the point where I can be a bit of a zealot, but even I understand that there has to be an exception. And for me, that “exception” is that your words and art must never directly harm another. I don’t mean in the relative sense, such as entertainment or art with violent themes, nor do I include feelings within the context of “harm”. When I say “harm”, I mean actual physical injury, the kind which might be brought by a large organization with many avid followers calling for the stoning of a single person.

As for the so-called “racism” and its relation to artwork “The Spear”, I have to ask, are we going to take every minor offence against another as racism from now on? I’m not sure I like the direction such a path will take us. We’re already an overly sensitive nation without crying racism and creating widespread uproar every time some random person is somehow demeaned or made fun of. I suppose Zapiro better start toning down his caricatures then and we might as well censor TV in general. I should add that this will be a great step towards making us the most BORING nation in the world.
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LataniRamalivhana

Posted 361 days ago
well said scribbles am also tired of labeling any offence made by the opposite race as "racist" , if the president cant keep his "spear" where it belongs why must we keep our mouth shut about it. we must grow up.

the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 361 days ago
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"...if you depict a white politician in that form the outcry will be . totally different," Mantashe said.

Would there be an outcry?

I'm getting very tired of the race card being hauled out at every opportunity. Racism is a very real and very devastating illness in our country. Hauling out the poor tattered and abused race card like this simply devalues it and makes it a 'cry wolf' farce.
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Mahen

Posted 361 days ago
An article a few weeks ago comes to mind when the ANC in KZN said that they cant use the race card much longer as its already been 20 years since they were in power and they cant blame aparheid anymore.

Clearly they are milking this now since they know they cant do it much longer
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CarelSteenekamp

Posted 361 days ago
Who is brave enough to test the Momma's hypothesis. What would Zille have to say about an image of herself with stick-on (strap on?) pudenda? Let's be fair here; it is not Zuma's real d*ck on display. Zille sues for being called a kitchen-girl; is this different? Is the gender of the politician significant? The type of image? Does Zille deserve it? Does Zuma? Am I a racist? So many interesting things to think about.
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Here'sJohnny!

Posted 359 days ago
Amen.

SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
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"This man has insulted the entire nation and he deserves to be stoned to death."

These words could also apply to Jacob Zuma.

To me this is a disgusting painting of a disgusting man. I am not condoning the public display of such a vulgar painting just as I do not condone the vulgar public lifestyle of the President.

The incitement of violence by a church leader is perhaps the most vulgar of all. To label this painting as an act of racicim is beyond comprehension. Everyone who does this clearly displays their own bias and as such prove their own racism.
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Razzow

Posted 361 days ago
*Freedom of speech*......you oakes know no limits so let it be. Lets see where this freedom of speech without responsibility gets us.

Mike123

Posted 361 days ago
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So Enoch Mthembu, one of those who has an imaginary friend, and who practices cannibalistic rituals (communion) as part of his faith, feels that he he has the right to pronounce judgment on others? Ha! He is nothing but another fool!

mzansi-wanda

Posted 361 days ago
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With respect, Mr Enoch Mthembu, please refrain from using my culture to pomote rascism and and indirectly sashay an individuals conduct. I too, am not a fan of the distateful painting but President is an author of his own misfortune.

It is not my culture to have kids out wedlock, more so if your have izithembu (a number of wives).
It is not my culture sleep my with friends children who regard me as their malume or babumcane/babumkhulu.
It is not my culture to hoard business deals for my nephews and kids, who don't have the wherewithal to run them save for my clan name.
It is not my culture to enjoy all earthly delicacies whilst my people remain steeped in chronic poverty. Infact, my culture dictates that I should not go to bed with a full belly without knowing whether my neigbour's belly is full.

Mr Mthembu,together with the other religious fanatics are the reason why some of us don't take religion seriously!
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Mike123

Posted 361 days ago
Well said!
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SpotLight

Posted 361 days ago
The enlightened have tried everything in their power to show Zuma for what he is. This painting was a perfect depiction of his abuse of the trust the nation put in him. He has evaded all ways of getting him to answer for his crimes in a court of law costing the country millions. Here at last is a way to put the spotlight on his despicable actions and non actions and at last it costs the trax payer nothing. It was brilliant Brett! The outrage is actualy a reaction coming from guilt and the anger is that it cannot be stopped by using tax payers money to hide that guilt.They will today try and curb this avenue of expression. If they are victorious the country will be poorer.
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SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
Hear hear !!!!
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Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
It's amazing that the ANC wants to drag every black person into this. This is about Zuma and about Zuma alone. If 'the Spear' attacks anything or anyone - it's Zuma. Now they want to stir an emotional response in blacks and make blacks feel that this is their battle also. In will not be fooled and go running around the High Court today to protect Zuma. He has neglected black people but now his comrades are making us believe he is in the same sinking boat as us. There is absolutely nothing racist about this portrait! Frankly Zuma's name does not even appear anywhere on the picture, it could be my spectacle wearing uncle they are depicting you know, but I don't give a F****.
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efil4zaggin

Posted 361 days ago
Can somebody bring the idiots who run around with blinkers to come read over here so they can be shown and hopefully see things for what they are!!! Wathetha kakuhle mzansi-wanda.
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Timbuck9

Posted 361 days ago
CHIRP OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WELL SAID!!!!!
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Black-Moses

Posted 361 days ago
When the head honcho is cornered, he is always hiding behind culture.
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Mahen

Posted 361 days ago
very well said
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Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
Encore ENCORE ENCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Telling it like it is......let the hypocrites be exposed!!
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Mrobi

Posted 360 days ago
MESHOMO YA LENA E YA LE LATELA MOHOMPHEGI JAKOBOSI ZUMA
(YOUR DEEDS SHALL FOLLOW YOU HIS EXCELLENCY JACOB ZUMA).

You like to unzip a lot and these artists will always reflect on you. For now just take Zapiro's advice and live with it because this is who you are and they are just reflecting on your real life. The Mthembus and Mantashes should just read our constitution between the lines. They seem not to understand that in a democratic state like ours freedom of expression ought to be embraced. If Juju was not fired he would have addressed this things in a very excellent manner. Goodluck Cde Zuma, unfortunately unlike during the rape and corruption charges, this time around people are too busy to chant outside the Courts. Many are still to come, this are just the signs of the downfall of Pharao's ruling. He must also watch-out for the possibility of reinstating the corruption and rape charges which were sympathetically dropped. We are too busy to chant this time.

Goodluck bra,

Mrobi Pitori

mikesmith

Posted 361 days ago
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Interesting to me as a NON South Africa the vitriolic response to The Spear by so many. Anyone care to explain why it is so?
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SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
I can but the editor of this page will remove my comment. I think you know the answer as much as most commentators here does.
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Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
In South Africa, we're not allowed to tell the emporer he's wearing no clothes...

Seriously though, there's no complex reason. Many of our leaders simply don't like being mocked.
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Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
mikesmith ... the real issue is the size. The artist shoud've adde a few more inches to the spear to pass censorship.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 361 days ago
We tend to have an unreasonable amount of 'respect' for those in leadership positions and a lamentable habit of taking orders (hence the Swazi king hasn't been physically turfed out by his subjects).

It is actually a form of punishment to strip someone. A common thief would be stripped in public to demean him. Thus, having a leader and an elder with his bits sticking out is considered to be disrespectful and demeaning.

We also don't seem to have much idea of art interpretation or of symbolism in art. All in all, we tend to be a literal bunch.
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Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
Mommacyndi said, "All in all, we tend to be a literal bunch."

Unless of course we're talking about "bring me my machine gun", "spilling blood," or "shoot the boer", then we suddenly have a full and complete understanding of figures of speech, even if only briefly.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 361 days ago
:) true. We are also a contradictory lot with double standards as our norm.
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GregSmith

Posted 361 days ago
Jacob Zuma being portrayed as a BIG PRICK is accurate albeit crass but does not deserve stoning to death. May I remind Enoch - Jesus said ""Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

ArseneLupin

Posted 361 days ago
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"Enoch Mthembu, spokesman for the Nazareth Baptist Church, commonly known as the Shembe church, said: "This man has insulted the entire nation and he deserves to be stoned to death."

How Old Testament...

Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
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The Anc is too predictable. The respond exactly like expected. The sting of the picture would not have been so bad had they issued a public statement to the effect that people must go visit the gallery and make an opinion. Zuma should've giggled his way out of this. If I were him; I'd take a real picture of myself in a similar position and circulate it on the Web, just to say I don't care what you say. Now that would be considered disgusting by a lot of people, even those who see nothing wrong with the portrait.

123Franky

Posted 361 days ago
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Enoch Mthemu's comments clearly explain why the Shembe church is factionalised and at loogerheads over power, all the time.. There is no element of spirituality ih his statement.His understanding and overview on matters of Christianity is therefore below par, by any stretch of imagination.

If I were him, I would have proposed a meeting between Jacob Zuma and the artist, and engage the two along the lines of morality, hence Christianity.
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Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
I AM with you on the point of a meeting; a meeting similar to the one organised by the DA to engage the two troubled racist youths. But I believe the lessons in morality will be more helpful for Zuma than the artist.

mzansi-wanda

Posted 361 days ago
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@Sinbadmen, therein lies the irony. Shouldn't people be at work than be running around the High Court and singing displaced struggle songs which were not composed to decry paintings?

Yerrrrr, it pains me what is happenning to once a glorious movement. This is not the ANC of ISITHALADWE O.R Tambo, ISITHALANDWE Luthuli, ISITHALANDWE Joe Slovo and ISITHALANDWE Chrs Hani.

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Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
NO NO NO this is not the ANC of Modiba! or Sobukwe or Xuma or Mbeki. This is a very different ANC altogther although they share the same history.
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GregSmith

Posted 361 days ago
Dr Reul Khoza summed it up..."...the strange breed of 'leadership'..."

SpotLight

Posted 361 days ago
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Mzansi-wanda. no artist would have depicted O.R Tambo, ISITHALANDWE Luthuli, ISITHALANDWE Joe Slovo and ISITHALANDWE Chrs Hani in this manner . The depictions of these untainted heroes grace our land in the form of naming of major roads, airports and with happiness our living legend is still with us Mandela. Do I see a faint smile pass over Mandela face?

Territc

Posted 361 days ago
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This is blatant hate speech and Enoch needs to be gagged. Wasn't Juju gagged over a similar issue?

Now to Minister Radebe Minister Radebe - How dare you. How dare you speak on my behalf. I am not the majority nor am I offended. What does offend however, is the horrific conditions under which many of South Africa's children are forced to live (See UN Report in case you have your head in a hole and don't know what I am talking about).

That court case and criminal investigation is a waste of my hard earned cash. How dare you waste taxpayers money with this nonsense. How dare you put this nonsense above these children's needs. How dare you not have the decency to recognise what is important and what is not. Let Zuma fight his own battles in his own time. You and the rest of your ANC cronies need to focus on living up to the promises that got you elected in the first place. How dare you!!!

Brett, here's my solution to this nonsense. Paint a potrait of yourself or your Dad with your spears in full glory.

Saha

Posted 361 days ago
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The sad thing is that “the freedom of expression” and a sole man’s shadow have been allowed to divide the nation into camps that are unfortunately split along racial lines. We have the traditionalists camp composed of mostly black people on one hand and the “noninterventionist” camp which is mostly white on the other hand. In the debate that has resulted on talk shows and social media, the prominent and eloquent voices sound gloating and disrespectful as they have done so since the advent of colonialism. Traditional artefacts meant for ritual ceremonies are conveniently referred to as evidence of “nude” artworks in the African societies. These voices seem to be setting perimeters, as usual, regarding what is freedom of expression, hate speech, racism, etc, in our society. As it’s commonly so, the majority try to be fortify themselves by pointing at the apparent prejudiced tendencies in our midst. What do they get in return? They are shouted down and scorned!
Go on. Let the partisan mentality and the loathing aimed at an individual tear this fragile society apart once more and we’ll never be ONE.
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Kapitalissimo

Posted 361 days ago
Saha - i personally dont know what is good for this country. One-ness or a new order where blacks are given a chance to rule the way they see fit? we the former european people are not playing according to the rules of reconcialiation and nation building anyway - maybe we deserve a bit of a klap

2PSam

Posted 361 days ago
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Im black and I will go to court if necessary to support Murray. Zuma deserves this expression. this is what he does. there is no racism here. I do not see blacks in the picture but the disappointing president of SA. I am not proud to call him president.

KeithMahommed

Posted 361 days ago
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There seems to be some disgust towards Zuma's lifestyle: multiple wives and children out of wedlock. This is what the painting purports to be a parody of. However, Zuma's lifestyle is acceptable in his Zulu culture. Thus the painting is seen as showing disgust to Zulu culture and thus is viewed by many as racist. Understandably so. Replace Zuma with Queen Elizabeth(ruler) or Jesus(culture and religion) and I think you will empathise. It is highly naive for people to expect an advanced level of understanding in or country with our painful history still an open wound. Let's grow up and stop acting like mischievous kids. Both the artist and the gallery are pitiful.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 361 days ago
Jesus has been painted nude but that is irrelevant.
Your interpretation is that this is an attack on polygamy and promiscuity. That is not necessarily what the artist intended and it certainly isn't my interpretation of the painting. The symbolism of Stalin and the stance show me someone who is oblivious to being exposed. Race, religion or ethnic group doesn't enter into it.

LiezellB

Posted 361 days ago
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The ANC and Zuma must seriously get over themselves! They are not gods and if you are in the public realm you open yourself to various forms of critisism and public comment.
If only they can spend the same amount of energy, money and time to actually sort out corruption, fraud and unemployment, the country would be in much better shape.

rrza

Posted 361 days ago
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You cannot expect people to respect you if you do not respect yourself.

Kapitalissimo

Posted 361 days ago
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i agree with both the Mthembus and Mantashe. this country needs a revolution

Ijooo

Posted 361 days ago
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The portrait must be put down, without any compensation to the culprit.
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SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
You civil servants are coming to work later and later as time goes on. Stop wasting taxpayers money and do your job. The one we pay you to do.

AFRICAis60%MUSLIM

Posted 361 days ago
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The painting must be NATIONALISED!

scum

Posted 361 days ago
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The British were mapping the bottom of the ocean .... 800 years ago. This lot are still calling for stoning... Idiot!

m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 361 days ago
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It was only Archbishop Desmond Tutu who drew our attention to the church as an institution on the side of the fight against oppression. The rest were either preaching us to accept our plight, and live 'permanently after death'. Hence only women saw value in listening to mfundisi who was less educated than them. But many churches were very severe of Tutu's siding with the oppressed.

Razzow

Posted 361 days ago
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Doesnt Mr. Mthembu have his *Freedom of Speech*............or is it now irresponsible? Someone was talking about double standards a couple of comments ago.......or did i miss something.
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 361 days ago
You're dead right! He has his *Freedom of Speech* to call for the stoning to death of people. His church supported Inkatha against the UDF during the struggle against apartheid. If you missed anything; IFP has collapsed into the ANC since prior to Polokwane. These blood-sucking ticks are all over us, and keep growing with the patronage they get. Remember how Macaully tried to lay his hands on our hard-earned taxes, to bolster Zuma's fight against Mbeki. This pimp will stop at nothing to stay in power. We are all little fies on the wall, fit to be crushed on his way to Mangaung. His penis is a rallying point as it was before Polokwane.
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Razzow

Posted 361 days ago
I kinda dont know what your ranting and raving about the IFP/ANC/Shembe has anything to do with Freedom of SPeech........Attention divertion perhaps? lol......by the way it doesnt follow that all Shembe followers are ANC or IFP...be it now or in the past. just a thought.
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the_original_MommaCyndi

Posted 361 days ago
I don't really see how a painting can incite murder but I do see how a religious leader of a cult could. Maybe that is the difference?

StoneAngel

Posted 361 days ago
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It seems that with all the thousands of comments about Zuma's thingie hanging out and being exposed - in my opinion it really has sparked a mass debate!

Razzow

Posted 361 days ago
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Sorry, I think I missed something. My bad!! Some people have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression and some dont......responsible or not.In anycase its the story of my beloved country: what was I thinking. "Some people ae more equal than others".
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Kapitalissimo

Posted 361 days ago
you missed nothing sir - this is just how things are done in this country. worse still these things are done by those who claim monopoly on civility and education
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SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
Razzo there is a big difference between hate speech and incitement to violence and a presentation of the truth. The ANC is against the death penalty yet they condone the rantings of a so called man of the cloth to condemn somebody to death.

But I am preaching to the bias and racist. You will never understand because you don't want to. You are just like Jacob Zuma and his fellow leaders. They only care for their own and stuff the rest especially the poverty stricken uneducated people who voted for them. Disgusting would you not agree.

RedCoat

Posted 361 days ago
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And long shall timorous fancy see The painted chief, and pointed spear, And Reason's self shall bow the knee To shadows and delusions here”

Philip Freneau

KafreeMoneykey

Posted 361 days ago
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Enoch Mthembu ""This man has insulted the entire nation and he deserves to be stoned to death"

This threads on hate speech and I hope the authorities will do what is right as this church going man has diregarded Section (2)(c) of our constitution. Enoch Mthembu, you have the right to freedom of expression but your incitement to cause harm is dangerous and out of order.

Enoch Mthembu ""This is an attack on the culture of the majority, the black people of South Africa. With our culture we are allowed to marry many women"

I hear your views here however, polygamy has got rules as well. Polygamy allows you to have as many wives as you want (and can afford) but it does not allow one to engage in a relationship outside of the confines of the marriage or wedlock. I could have taken you seriously if you shouted ontop of your head during the shower incident. Why are you showing hypocritical tendencies as a head of churh nogals?

ANC Woman's League : "Painting vilolates Presidents Integrity"

Zimbhokodo zethu, I am totally against the depiction of a penis in that portrait and I certainaly do not see anything artistic about it. However, mothers of our nation, how do you really come out in support of our Presidents integrity after your silence on shower incident and Sonono Khoza's love child? Julius Malema had to defend that nonsense as well and look where he is today, at least he was man enough to apologise to the lady. I am fully aware that the president was not charged with rape but what he did was out of the wedlock (not allowed even in polygamy) and he compromised his integrity by himself. To the ANCWL, stop politicing please.

Zuma : "It is an undignified depiction of my personality and seeks to create doubt about my personality in the eyes of my fellow citizens, family and children."

My President, power comes with responsibility and a very high standard of integrity barometer. The perception that the majority of the public has of you makes it very difficult to defend you even if you were wronged. Maybe it is time for a reality check and assess where this thing comes from and whether or not it is worth fighting for. Oh by the way, this incident cannot be viewed with a racial eye as South Africans off all races have a differing view. Some of my white friends feel this is disrespectful and some of my black friends feel you got what you deserved.

Eish, inzima lento!
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rrza

Posted 361 days ago
Bravo !!
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Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
Excellent, fair and unbiased comment!!

Well said sir!
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SecretVoice

Posted 361 days ago
Very balanced and true comment. Well done!!!!!!!!!!!!

MusaMahlangu

Posted 361 days ago
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I salute Mthembu. That this man still breathes and the gallery still stands shows how WEAK the government is. An African government runs crying crimen injuria to " The Courts". Can't the government learn from M15 and the Diana Story? Serious and irreversible state intervention is needed here.
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Black-Moses

Posted 361 days ago
The only state intervention needed to save the spear is mkhonto we sizwe, ne!
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RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
Looks like you're still stuck in the Apartheid years too...must be an ANC syndrome.

a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
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.......HA HA HA HA HA HE HE HE HE..........Is Eunuch Mthembu by any chance related to Jackson Daniels Mthembhu ????????

a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
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...Why the Mthembus don't get enraged on the Ayanda Mabulu "Better poor than a rich puppet", or other ANC cadres for that matter, or are there double standards as usual????

GregSmith

Posted 361 days ago
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Well done Tselane Tambo, daughter of the late ANC struggle icon Oliver Tambo. You have hit the nail on the head (excuse the pun). For JZ to have such a fragile ego is remarkable, yet that is the only remarkable thing this man can attribute to himself. He has done F@#K ALL for the poor, unemployed, homeless etc. Now aren't these the real issues, that he and his ANC government should be focusing on? Perhaps then he would have a few artists portraying him in a better light.

Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
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The irony and perhaps the sting in the tail of this unfortunate stance by the ANC and those aligned to our President, is the huge hype they are creating around this painting will do 2 things:
1) Push up the value of the painting to obscene levels!
2) Result in many many many more artists taking on controversial political figures with their art, in a hope to get a reputation and some artistic credibility. Artists are now going to push that limit further and further.......partially thanks to the huge free publicity.... care of the ANC.

LOL.....watch this spot!
Oh and all of this while the UN report on the terrible state of our Nation and its children gets quietly swept under the carpet.......or is that lost in the smoke screen of ANC hype ???

Racism...... my foot Mantashe !! There is NO racism here!!

a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
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....Zuma is the man imposed to me to be my representative as President. I could not exert my will approving or disapproving him......

...as my representative, he has not proven himself clean and uncorrupted from all charges made to him, nor he is clearly willing to do so......

...as my representative, he engages in promiscuous conduct and sexual scandals and justifies himself as culturally obliging.......

.....as my representative, he condones corruption, avoids corrupt party members to be brought to justice, rewards corruption by appointing sinister cadres and murder and fraud suspects, and frees thousands of jailed criminals back into the society as a cheap way to get more votes.........

....as my representative, he has no remorse to flaunt his personal enrichment and enriching his numerous progeny and to drink champagne on my behalf..........

......with his debauchery and complete lack of testicular fortitude up to the point that he has allowed the lowest clown in the circus to challenge the ringmaster and still has not shown him who is in command.
With the protection and encouragement of criminal activities inside the ring of chosen partners in crime.
With these abilities he has not hesitated to paint with the same brush to AL the citizens of SA,black and white..........

.........and he feels offended by someone exposing the best of his ability in thinking part ??????................
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a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
"ALL"

BootC

Posted 361 days ago
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As a black person in South Africa I feel being misrepresented by the current state president. I do not envy his life stye yet I am worried about the future trend of presidents of this wonderful country. Morality aside (as some argue whose standard to follow),it is costly to me to maintain your life style Mr President. You are actually costing the ANC once beloved and regarded as hope 'for better life for all' by many.

jeedo

Posted 361 days ago
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This painting is not only an attack on the president but on all black males. This is a generalisation that is coming from hidden racists which some of them are on the pages of Timeslives making derogatory comments. If you read the right to freedom of expression it does not have 'insults' inside. It is also aggravating to see white people defending or justifying this disrespectful character's actions. Hence, as an educated black male i say, ' I dont give a damn about these white hypocrites'. They must go hang!!!
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RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
I have noted your posts in a few threads on TL today and deduce the following....you are a small minded racist with clear rage and a violent disposition. You and your ilk are what is wrong with this country...do us all a favour and swim out to an isolated island in the Pacific and enjoy.
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Black-Moses

Posted 361 days ago
As a black male myself i don't feel offended whatsoever. Generalisation, my foot. Zuma is nothing but a habitual sex maniac, preiod. Instead of running the country he spents most of his time running after his ''spear.'' History will mercilesly and painfully judge him as the worst president South Africa has ever had in modern times. Speak for yourself Mr educated black male.

KafreeMoneykey

Posted 361 days ago
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@Wiseguy, I agree, there is NO racism here! Fact is our president let it "loose", he failed to close his zipper several times, and therefore failed himself in the process. This is a classic case of reaping what you sow! I am worried about our principles who want to defend this.

If I were him I was going to laugh this off since the portrait is not off the mark in depicting my past actions! I have to say that the piece is accurate though I would not promote it! I feel it is a bit insulting, but in this case a bit true. I have never knew that there will be a time when a penis causes so much uproar!

Makes me think of Bill Clinton's impeachment cartoons!

Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
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"I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for, and to see realised. But my Lord, if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

A democratic and free society in which freedom of expression is allowed and enshrined in our constitution, I believe,......even if that means a vulgar painting depicting the short comings of our president.......not that I support the artists work.....but it is his constitutional right !!!!
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jeedo

Posted 361 days ago

Ever heard of the Limitation Clause...Wise Guy? No right is absolute.

16. Freedom of expression

  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes ­
    1. freedom of the press and other media;
    2. freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;
    3. freedom of artistic creativity; and
    4. academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

  2. The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­
    1. propaganda for war;
    2. incitement of imminent violence; or
    3. advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

Pictures of the president that he may not personally like do not appear to fall under any of those categories -ED

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Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
Limitation clause......as in you can't shout fire in a crowded theatre if there is no fire??
Or as in you cannot shout racism at a work of art if there is no racism, Jeedo ??
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Mugabe99

Posted 361 days ago
jeedo
Posted 1 hours ago


You are in the wrong section of the Const , the correct section is sec 10

devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
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Enoch Mthembu? What the hell dude? Throwing the first stone? Never mind the Information bill, next up is the art bill? Only ANC approved art?

RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
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All this 'debate' is for nought now...the 2 Nkandla village idiots were bussed up and defaced the painting this morning. So I guess it's all over bar the shouting...so much for our constitution and freedom of expression. Up side for the 2 Nkandla village idiots is that they will be given government posts...probably in the soon-to-be-ressurected 'Censorship Ministry'.

Wiseguy

Posted 361 days ago
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Yes people, a new "independant" committee will now be formed following the soon to be released "Art Bill"......and all art work on public display throughout RSA will first need to be approved by this independant committee.

This committee will have wide and far reaching powers and artists will possibly be jailed for anything up to 25 years for depicting senior politicians(with a "slight" bias towards senior ANC politicians) in a derogatory or vulgar manner.
Naturaly this committee will consult widely but the politician affected WILL have the final say in the matter. There that should appease the current ANC leadership or maybe not??
Maybe they think this is strong enough grounds to bring back the death penalty ??

ANC....you are FAST becoming a circus or your own design !!!

All this while our children suffer........see UN report on the state of the nations children.

Now why don't we see this type of hype over our children who are living in abject poverty?
Surely this issue of this countries children warrants serious hype......not some vulgar art work???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
Well said.

Mangqeshane

Posted 361 days ago
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Ok I am a Black person, can a white person make me understand this. Does being artistic means one must be RUDE? Any1 who does not see anything wrong with that potrait is ludicrious.

Though I do not agree with Lugogo, but I feel his pain for this insult levelled at Mpangazitha, our leader, fellow African, umZulu wakithi.

I don't care how much one may despise uZuma, its immaterial but that potrait has nothing to do with art. I am actually amaze that amaZulu ase Goli haven't acted rowdy regarding this. We despised ET and no Black artis can create a provacative potrait of ET bending provocatively next to a Balck youth with its genetals exposed (based on the current murder trial)
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devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
"ART: the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others."

I do not think it was rude of the artist, in fact, I think it is the most accurate depiction yet of our government. Just read the papers! This painting WAS NOT RACIALLY BIASED!!! It was a depiction of our leader's skills and the cadre he is leading.
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Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
Being artistic doesn't mean one has to be rude, but it certainly doesn't mean one has to be polite either. There are actually many artists which rely on shock pieces to forward their points.

As for your suggestion of it having "nothing to do with art", I'm afraid to say that the very definition of art disagrees with you. You might not like it but that doesn't stop it from being art, no matter how hard you try.

As for your OPINION of others who disagree with you being ludicrous, well that's just absolutely ludicrous. Ha, see wat I did thar?
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RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
Ok I'm a white person, can a black person make me understand this. Why is the majority of black rap music masogynistic and generally denegrates women? Is this really art or a medium used to reduce women to mere sex objects?
@ Mangqeshane...I reckon that I am asking the same question but sitting on the other side of the same fence. Not all art is to everyones taste and is not always appreciated....I personally find most Rennaissance art dull and to focussed on religion and as a result do not like it, yet I find the work of Dali, for example, fantastic and thought provoking. The works of Klimt and Picasso strangely provocative and abstract and the work of Bosch macabre but brilliant. I know that there are those who will disagree but that's art...it's starts debate and insightful conversations...much like this piece. Personally I believe that this whole saga is a puerile and immature over reaction by the ANC and it's sad outdated Stalinist view on politics.
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mzansi-wanda

Posted 361 days ago
@ Mangqeshane I qoute "umZulu wakithi." "I am actually amaze that amaZulu ase Goli haven't acted rowdy regarding this". My brother you and Enoch Mthembu deserve each other.

By the way, I don't have a problem with polygamy. I find the picture distateful. However I am not going to defend a man who sleeps with his close friend's daughter who regards him as ubabumcane (father figure) and a few years later impregnates another close friend's daughter.

I can't believe that this is acceptable in any BLACK culture. Yes my my brother, nami ngu muntu umnyama. Half Sotho/Swati/Zulu/Tswana to be specific.
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OBigOneKenobi

Posted 361 days ago
You're suggesting that art be conservative, which defeats the purpose. This painting doesn't level any criticism at polygamy, but rather at Zuma for his numerous sexual exploits outside of marriage.

Now my question as a white person, can a black person help me understand this? Why do black people have a tendency to respond with violence when things don't go their way? Is that behaviour not a bit dated?

Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
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I saw this ANC commissioned portrait of all the former ANC Chiefs assembled nicely in order together, what was shocking was the fact that Zuma was at the centre and his picture much larger than the rest of the Chiefs. No one in the ANC said... NO NO NO, we can't have a mediocre president overshadowing people like Mandela, which is an insult!

Anti_Propaganda

Posted 361 days ago
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The defaced "art"work by those two men is ALSO a display of "freedom" of expression. Theirs is freedom to express disgust over the "art" work... If there's nothing wrong with the "art" work, then there's nothing wrong in what they did...
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RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
Ermmm...the only real difference here is that the work was/is the personal property of someone i.e. privately owned. So your comment is silly and trivial (to be polite), what these 2 stupid men have done is damaged/destroyed private property and that IS illegal and has nothing to do with freedom of expression...comprehenda?!?!
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Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
What you're describing is "vandalism", not "freedom of expression." I have no idea how you even managed to link the two as you've essentially given anyone permission to paint, or wreck, everything you own so long as they explain that they're "expressing" themselves...

Let me be blunt, everyone has the freedom to express themselves, not censor other artists or VANDALIZE property.

I say this with no offence intended but some of you really need to put more thought into your comments before clicking "Submit my Reply"...
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 361 days ago
Noooo! What's up there? The South African brain seems to turned all prick now.

Your 'freedom' does not allow you to destroy another person's freedom. It allows you to paint another person's imagined prick, if you can, but definitely not deny another person's gift. Go try your artistic skills at painting Brett's testicles, and see how many people will respond to it, let alone buy it.

Please man, let's remove the prick in our brain now. My uncle used to say that 'once it stands up, the brain goes down' . We have tried to stop your president rubbing it up, because it hurts our pockets. But he has consistently ignored our plea, and gave us the finger. Anything to stop him hurting us will do now.
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devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
You may be right but that is damaging private property! A criminal act.

l984

Posted 361 days ago
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Well, the famous painting now resembles Mr Bean's Whistler's Mother.... and has just become even more valuable and controversial as there is already history behind it as well (developing further as we speak...)

Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
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Govt big boss: Do somethin about the paintin!
Police big boss: I will!

Later.
Police: Hey you two, would you like a R1000
Two guys: Yes Sir
Police: Here is a bucket of paint, get rid of the spear

Later
Jurno: Hey they have defaced the picture, somebody grab them!
Security: You dogs! Call the police

Later
Police: We'll with them from here

Later
Police: Get out of the car and disappear, here is R500 each
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spain

Posted 361 days ago
I'm just thankfull to the two gentlemen who did the did ...
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spain

Posted 361 days ago
# deed#

SpotLight

Posted 361 days ago
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It seems to have come to light that the first to deface the pic was a white male and then a black male. What a wonderfulk ending!!! we all the Emporer without clothing. the emporer called it racist and a white male destroyed it. the ANC and our naked king is humiliated twice

Anti_Propaganda

Posted 361 days ago
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TO ROGUE TROOPER...

So damaging a person's reputation, an organisation's reputation a culture's reputation on the basis of "art" is within the prescripts of law? Dont be daft! By attaching a price on the medium does not take away the implicit derogatory depiction of any person. Freedom of expression is and should not be interpreted to defame, defile, inappropriately represent and disrespect any person's dignity!

Dignity is also a human right. It has been infringed. dont be so narrow as to think this has only one perspective (which so happens to benefit you and like-minded people) It is a gross encroachment of another human being's dignity, rights and image. e.g. If u masturbate it does not give me the right to paint you masturbate and sell/display it and claim "ART"... You, like-minded people and the media are the ones dragging this country to unimaginable moral ruins by the despicable promotion of such "expression"...
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m1si2zi3nzo4

Posted 361 days ago
Its because our brain is all prick now, including the Womens League that cried crocodile tears when a woman was raped in Mofolo. Strangely they never raised a finger when Khwezi's death was pronounced, just for reporting the fact of her rape. Has she been allowed back in the country now?

That vandal did what he only knows, violence. His brain is so full now he can't think.
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devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
I would have been honoured should someone paint my privates that big. lol. Like-minded people? Hmm, stereotyping is not allowed Snippy.
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Scribbles

Posted 361 days ago
At face value, it's fairly simple, "damaging" through words or pictures is superficial, it only "hurts" if someone allows it. Physical damage costs and unlike the former "damage" cannot simply be ignored. If we enforced laws which stifled the freedom of expression based on flimsy rhetoric like "moral ruin" and not being allowed to "defame" or "disrespect", we'd lose a lot more than Brett's promiscuous presidential portraits. We'd have to outlaw most comedy, most entertainment over PG-13 and we'd have the courts drown in litigation which amounts to, "He called me a dunderhead!"

You might see the perfect future with such an approach but all I see is the next fashion statement, straight-jackets!
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RogueTrooperv2

Posted 361 days ago
Whoa...we have a live one here!!!
Ok...I'm going to break this down but be advised that this is my opinion, albeit it one shared by millions of people.
1- JZ has done more damage to his reputation that any painting can. He has over 700 unanswered criminal charges hanging over his head, has been proved to have corrupt relationships and as such is corrupt, practices extra-marital affairs and has children out of wedlock and to even try an argue CULTURE here will show your ignorance and immaturity...so rather maintain dignity and let that slide ok?!
2- The ANC has ruined their reputation beyond repair (and belief considering the base they come from), their failures are testament to that...health, education, service delivery, tender rigging etc etc...so stow the ANC's reputation argument.
You talk of dignity...where is JZ's respect for anybody's dignity let alone his own. He is an embarresment to the entire nation's dignity. He makes a mockery of the office of president and certainly has no moral rectitude...AT ALL. He opened himself to this kind of scrutiny when he evaded his 'day in court' and raped a women and again eluded conviction.
To use the anaolgy re: mastubating shows your level of emotional intelligence and makes me realise that debating with you is pointless as it would be proof of the ...."don't argue with an idiot because the people watching may not be able to tell the difference"
BUT suffice it to say that you need to open your mind a little and at least be tolerant to other viewpoints and realise that the world is not confined to your conservative view!!!
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a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
.....where is the dignity of the children who have to live in dumping grounds and have less access to education and health than in the horrendous past......

where is the dignity of the unemployed and impoverished while the ANC Minstrels and Parliament choristers live the jet-set life and only remember communities in time for elections to go out and dupe them once more......

.....where is the dignity of SA citizens when THE PRESIDENT behaves like an uncontrollable horny satyr justifying "his culture"..........
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Pinkpout

Posted 361 days ago
dig·ni·ty Noun:
The state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect.
A composed or serious manner or style.

If dignity is the state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect can this term truly apply to Jacob Zuma. Zuma has no morals at all and openly flaunts this in public through his embarrassing displays of "zulu culture". Multiple wives, 21 children, affairs (sleeping with the daughter of a friend of his being one of them - he also had a child out of wedlock with her while MARRIED to other women already!). If a man is unable to respect his own marriage, wherein he took vows to remain faithful, where is the respect that we should afford him?

He sits in the seat of a "democratically elected" president apparently - but dare I remind South Africans that we do not vote for a president? We vote for a political party, the party winning the majority of votes is then placed in the position of appointing a president from among our ranks. So Zuma was never voted for by the country - only by the ANC. A man who has been accused of rape, publicly stated that if you shower after having unprotected sex with someone that you can avoid contracting HIV, had 700 charges of fraud and corruption against him dropped because of political interference and is now working on various ways of ensuring he doesn't lose the presidency (so much for democracy huh? More on this in later posts).

By my reckoning there is nothing about the man that leads me to believe that he is worthy of honour or respect.

Sinbadmen

Posted 361 days ago
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i dont believe the gallery would put the original on display.

KafreeMoneykey

Posted 361 days ago
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Just Google Ayanda Mabulu and check his artwork! Tutu's weewee showing whilst he is sitting ontop of the Pope's lap, Zuma holding umshini wakhe, Madiba with finger up his nose, Mugabe moering a nail up his nose. All this was done in 2010, no action was taken by the government...

So what is all the hype now? C'mon!
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a_stub_born

Posted 361 days ago
....how about the intellectual jeedo and Anti-propaganda commenting on Mabulu's painting....that is if they are honest.........
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Pinkpout

Posted 361 days ago
The hype is because JZ doesn't want the country to be reminded of his past antics this close to Mangaung
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devanzlive

Posted 361 days ago
WELL DONE!
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FabianSchoonraad

Posted 361 days ago
Apartheid may be over but racism is still rife, even (some would say 'especially') within the ranks of government.
A painting by a black person depicting a black person in a compromising position can't possibly be racism so therefore it must be art.
Conversely however, a painting by a white person depicting a black person in a compromising position can't possibly be art so therefore it must be racism.

I honestly feel that people should either be entirely non-racist and NEVER bring it up as an argument point or alternatively they should be overly-racist and ALWAYS bring it up as an argument point. At least then we know that person's position on the topic.
This "siting on the fence" nonsense seriously annoys me. (ANC, I'm talking about you...)