The chairman of Business Leadership SA, Bobby Godsell, has defended its extraordinarily tepid, not to say pusillanimous, response to President Jacob Zuma's firing of finance minister Nhlanhla Nene last year. In the midst of what was arguably South Africa's biggest crisis since 1994 the organisation, which represents corporate South Africa, issued a mildly admonitory press statement, which even its former CEO Michael Spicer felt was "lame" and indicative of a general "toadying up" to the government by organised business.Asks Godsell: "What would you have liked us to do?"In the event, Zuma recanted when confronted by some ANC heavyweights and a couple of banking executives."I am pleased that what I saw as a completely inappropriate decision was reversed in a matter of 48 or 72 hours," says Godsell.No thanks to the organisation he chairs, though?"That's your judgment. I know what we thought and what we tried to do. Business leaders in a whole range of organisations expressed their concerns effectively and were heard."story_article_left1The question Godsell refuses to answer head on is whether the organisation tried to engage with Zuma more directly than through a press statement."I do not know of a business leader who was not deeply distressed by the dismissal of minister Nene," he says. "I also don't know of a business leader who didn't use every avenue available to him to express that concern."What avenues did BLSA try to use apart from the press statement?"There are things that you can do in public and things that you can do in direct communication with people through meetings and messages and talking to people," he says.Is there enough direct engagement between Business Leadership SA and the government?The organisation has "very extensive access" to government, he says.Which raises the question: what has it made of this access? Because South Africa's situation could hardly be worse than it is."If we hadn't adopted the National Development Plan we'd be in a much worse place," says Godsell, who was on the commission that drew up the plan.The government may have adopted the NDP, but rating agency Fitch said last year it saw no sign of implementation.Godsell, who is on the national planning commission supposedly charged with guiding its implementation, says he can point to a number of advances including a law that prevents government employees from doing business with the government."That is progress," he says, in spite of a finding by the auditor-general that the practice is continuing apace.He also points to "progress with the Public Service Commission on dealing with corruption among government employees", although according to the auditor-general R60.9-billion has been lost through "wasteful and irregular" expenditure by these employees in the last two financial years."So I'm afraid in that instance Fitch is wrong," continues Godsell.What about all the policy decisions that fly in the face of the NDP, such as those relating to nuclear power and land reform, to name just two?"We're a democracy, and there's going to be controversy. The NDP argued that going nuclear is not an urgent priority."An argument Zuma has clearly ignored?"Minister Pravin Gordhan has given a commitment that nothing will be done that would break the budget - that this government with him as finance minister will not engage in reckless expenditure. You can believe him or not. I think in a sense the jury's out."Gordhan has made a number of statements lately about South Africa avoiding recession and junk status and regaining its lost credibility, which economists feel defy reality.But Godsell says his track record at the South African Revenue Service and as finance minister inspire a "great deal of confidence".Can the credibility Zuma destroyed be regained with Zuma in charge?"There's a democratic process of electing people," says Godsell. But he's not answering the question."We have a functioning democracy, we go to the polls every five years and the political process will play itself out. We will regain credibility if we act in a responsible way."Should the BLSA make more use of this leverage to challenge the government to do better?"What I do think emphatically is that the challenges are huge," says Godsell.block_quotes_start Anybody who thought we could overcome, in 22 years, 300 years of racial separation where one group was on top and everybody else below, was being unrealistic block_quotes_endHe says "very high" on the business agenda in its conversations with the government is the management of South African Airways and other state-owned enterprises."Business has to be very specific about what prudent governance [of state-owned enterprises] means. It's got to be very clear about what the role is of the shareholder in the form of a minister representing government, the board and the management."Business has a "huge responsibility" here, but is reluctant to be seen to be telling the government what to do and giving it ultimatums.Isn't this what the World Bank and International Monetary Fund are going to be doing quite soon if business itself does not?"This is a hypothetical possibility. It is something we've avoided for 22 years and I hope ... that we continue to avoid it," he says."Business does need to be as clear and forthright and specific as possible as to how to have the problems fixed. We need to be much stronger on what the solutions are in very concrete terms, including timelines and who the accountable agents are, than we have been in the past."But to say to government, 'do this or else' - I don't know what the 'else' is. In the end we have only one country, one economy ...The imperative is to fix it."He agrees that the power of business to steer government away from the cliff is diminished by its disunity and the perception that corporate South Africa is still untransformed."There is clearly some truth" in the perception about transformation, he says, "certainly in the eyes of some important participants".story_article_right2Less clear is what transformation means."Is it only a numbers game? Is it only about achieving certain demographic or gender targets over a period of time? Or is transformation deeper and bigger?"There is still a lot of confusion about what it means. It's a complex thing. We're dealing with 300 years of conflict-ridden history, and we're trying to create new societies that treat black and white, men and women with complete equality ..."Anybody who thought we could overcome, in 22 years, 300 years of racial separation where one group was on top and everybody else below, was being unrealistic."Godsell says he is "impatient" that 22 years after South Africa's transition there is still no non-racial, national umbrella body for business."If we want a non-racial South Africa we should start with our own organisations."Organisations working together in the presidential-business working group have found common positions on many issues, he says."We need to complete the progress we've made by having a single, national organisation."Black and white business need to understand that they will suffer equally if South Africa is downgraded."That's the folly of trying to divide our future into racial labels. We sink or swim together."..